Why/How Basso improved in TT

jc wrote:
Tour. Indeed, it seems at times as if the main difference between
T-Mobile, often considered a black hole of talent,




Dumbass -

T-Mobile, a black hole of talent?

You've seriously got your head up your ass.

BTW, if it's that easy to do what Bruyneel has done, maybe you should
do it too. I'll bet it pays well.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2005 15:17:07 -0700, sonarrat
wrote:

And Discovery certainly comes close to CSC's
success. How many riders
has Johan plucked from the anonymity of the
domestic scene and
transformed into top-level athletes?

I can't think of any. How many do you think there are?

Johan's greatest talent is his ability to exploit Spanish
speaking riders whose ability outstrips their sponsorship.
It seems as though Banesto and ONCE have left a financial
deficit that has left a lot of very good riders grossly
underpaid. Even guys from other teams, who have fewer
opportunities for pay increases.

Heras, Beltran, Rubiera, Pena from Colombia, Azevedo from
Portugal. It's an impressive list of riders to be supporting
LANCE in the high mountains.

Bob Schwartz

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
jc wrote:

Tour. Indeed, it seems at times as if the main difference between
T-Mobile, often considered a black hole of talent,





Dumbass -

T-Mobile, a black hole of talent?

You've seriously got your head up your ass.

BTW, if it's that easy to do what Bruyneel has done, maybe you should
do it too. I'll bet it pays well.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.


Well, I just checked and my head didn't seem to be up my ass. I suspect
I would know that sort of thing, but I guess I could be mistaken.

So a trained monkey couldn't get Lance to Paris in Yellow. Fair enough.
But it still seems to me like Bruyneel and his bros there at
Postal/Discovery haven't been all that stellar at developing talent. He
has done a fabulous job in putting together a team that can drag Lance
around France, but riders with ambitions of their own seem not to stick
around any longer than they have to. Boonen comes to mind here in
particular.

I'm sure Bruyneel's job pays a ****load more than mine does, but I think
I'd go ****ing crazy if I had to sit in a car for that many hours. So,
thanks but I'll pass.

jc wrote:

So a trained monkey couldn't get Lance to Paris in Yellow. Fair enough.
But it still seems to me like Bruyneel and his bros there at
Postal/Discovery haven't been all that stellar at developing talent. He
has done a fabulous job in putting together a team that can drag Lance
around France, but riders with ambitions of their own seem not to stick
around any longer than they have to. Boonen comes to mind here in
particular.

That's what I meant. Bruyneel cultvates talent for his own use. He may
not use everyone to win races, like the old Mapei squad, but he is
remarkably good at what he sets out to do. The same is not true of
Godefroot, because his pink squad is always split between Ulli and
Zabel. And he isn't even good at that, because they usually wind up
supporting neither where it counts.

-Sonarrat.

Howard Kveck wrote:
In article , sonarrat

wrote:

Tyler's defection to Phonak was about money. The one thing Riis
cannot
offer is a big paycheck, because he's working with a very small
budget
compared with the heavy hitters. Phonak does not have that
problem.

-Sonarrat.

You're correct, but I'd add that Phonak also promised to build a
Tour
team that was more focused on Hamilton as a sole leader than CSC
could
afford to do.

Perhaps, but you must understand that Phonak got two riders for the
price of one in Olympic Gold Medalist Tyler Hamilton so they were
getting a bargain. What you bet that each of the riders in the pro
peleton wish he had a twin to donate blood to his cause?

The only thing that makes sense in all this is how a guilty cheater
could not see how weak a "Vanishing Twin" defense sounds.

jc wrote:

Well, I just checked and my head didn't seem to be up my ass. I
suspect
I would know that sort of thing, but I guess I could be mistaken.

So a trained monkey couldn't get Lance to Paris in Yellow. Fair
enough.
But it still seems to me like Bruyneel and his bros there at
Postal/Discovery haven't been all that stellar at developing talent.
He
has done a fabulous job in putting together a team that can drag
Lance
around France, but riders with ambitions of their own seem not to
stick
around any longer than they have to. Boonen comes to mind here in
particular.



Dumbass -

Boonen was one that they screwed up on, but, they also were the ones
who spotted him.

That said, no one's ever, in the last 20 years anyway, built a team
that was so good at supporting a TdF contender. Not even Indurain,
who's team basically existed only for him, was able to dominate like
the USPS did - Indurain's team even cracked a few times and they had to
"buy" help from other squads to keep the race under control.

Some critics state that USPS's dominance makes the TdF boring and in
some instances they've been right, but if it were easy to to it, then
every team would - every team would love to win that race, if they
could.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:


Some critics state that USPS's dominance makes the TdF boring and in
some instances they've been right, but if it were easy to to it, then
every team would - every team would love to win that race, if they
could.

dumbass,

i don't think anyone is suggesting that dominating the tdf is easy,
even with the right rider, but it still doesn't mean it doesn't get
boring.

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
jc wrote:
Tour. Indeed, it seems at times as if the main difference between
T-Mobile, often considered a black hole of talent,

Dumbass -

T-Mobile, a black hole of talent?

You've seriously got your head up your ass.

dumbass,

he only said that is what is often said. but there's enough cases to
argue that point, savoldelli, sevilla, evans (all guys who led a GT)
fizzled at T-mobile. julich, botero, aerts all got worse when they got
there.

other than vino i can't think of a case where they took a promising
rider from another team to the next level. (nardello did win a world
cup, but he's an old fart and it's not like he made a huge leap).

somehow i don't think they're doing everything right.

amit wrote:
Kurgan Gringioni wrote:


Some critics state that USPS's dominance makes the TdF boring and
in
some instances they've been right, but if it were easy to to it,
then
every team would - every team would love to win that race, if they
could.

dumbass,

i don't think anyone is suggesting that dominating the tdf is easy,
even with the right rider,



Dumbass -

I think that's what jc is suggesting.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

"jc" a écrit dans le message de
...
sonarrat wrote:
Chris M wrote:

Dumbass, Riis' management style is the opposite of the iron-man.
And...where do you get "cohesion" from the orange machine? You say it
as if you know what you are talking about and hope for the best. That
seems to sum up you posting style. CSC stands alone in their superior
team culture that gets the most out of the talent of the team as
individuals and a group. There is no other team that even comes close.
Bartoli and Tafi were the only riders that did not have his best
results while riding for CSC. They were way past their prime and I
can't hold CSC responsible for that. That leaves about 95% (or more) of
the team that is having their best results of their careers.


I refer to EE's "cohesion" not in sense of riding as a team (they
certainly don't), but in supporting one another as Basque nationalists
out to prove a point. Now if those anarchists could only get organized,
they could accomplish great things.

And Discovery certainly comes close to CSC's success. How many riders
has Johan plucked from the anonymity of the domestic scene and
transformed into top-level athletes? They have a different reason for
wanting talented people, but they are still comparable.

-Sonarrat.

I would disagree that Discovery is on level with CSC. No one else comes
close to CSC in terms of giving its riders space to ride, and finding
ways for them to be successful. Riis really is remarkably good at that,
and I don't think it has all that much to do with passing around the
needle. The perfect TT positions of Basso and Zabriski didn't happen by
accident. Nor, does having riders peaked out for races that suit them,
as in the case of Bobby J at Paris-Nice. To me, there's nothing much
remarkable about what Bruyneel is up to at Postal/Discovery. Train a
monkey to drive the car, and Lance would probably still have won the
Tour. Indeed, it seems at times as if the main difference between
T-Mobile, often considered a black hole of talent, and Discovery is that
Discovery scored the best Tour rider of his generation while T-Mobile
ended up with the second best.

Zabriskie was TT boy before Riis ever spoke to him.