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Making America into Amsterdam



 
 
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  #301  
Old July 25th 18, 03:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 547
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 09:15:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:42:24 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

As I previously said, if one has a bike one doesn't need a car :-)


I'm not the "one" that can do it. I've previously mentioned my
attempts to do service calls on my bicycle. The technical problems
were easy. The stupid problem (strange bus transport rules,
unattended security, parts thieves, and potential damage to
electronics going over bumps) were not so easy.

I live about 1 mile from the main highway up a mostly paved road.
Checking Google Earth, there is an elevation rise of 465 ft. Average
slope is therefo
465 / 5280 = 8.8%
I can barely ride a bicycle up the hill. I find myself walking quite
often. I could not even imagine climbing the hill with a trailer full
of groceries, much less hauling a refrigerator (250-350 lbs). To be
fair, 50 years ago, I might have been able to do it, but not today.

It might be possible to survive without a car if the roads were all
flat, but in my area, very little is flat.



So, you are saying that no one lived in the area until automobiles
were available?
--

Cheers,

John B.
Ads
  #302  
Old July 25th 18, 04:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,638
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:42:24 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

As I previously said, if one has a bike one doesn't need a car :-)


Shuckins, I don't even need a bike -- it's only a mile and a half to
Owen's, I could walk that far last year, and I do have a rolling
walker with wheels big enough to use on sidewalks.

We don't really *need* the food I buy at Sweet Corn Charley, Meijer,
Aldi, Walmart, International Foods, Carniceria San Jose, and the
farmers' markets.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

  #303  
Old July 25th 18, 06:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:56:32 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 09:15:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:42:24 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

As I previously said, if one has a bike one doesn't need a car :-)


I'm not the "one" that can do it. I've previously mentioned my
attempts to do service calls on my bicycle. The technical problems
were easy. The stupid problem (strange bus transport rules,
unattended security, parts thieves, and potential damage to
electronics going over bumps) were not so easy.

I live about 1 mile from the main highway up a mostly paved road.
Checking Google Earth, there is an elevation rise of 465 ft. Average
slope is therefo
465 / 5280 = 8.8%
I can barely ride a bicycle up the hill. I find myself walking quite
often. I could not even imagine climbing the hill with a trailer full
of groceries, much less hauling a refrigerator (250-350 lbs). To be
fair, 50 years ago, I might have been able to do it, but not today.

It might be possible to survive without a car if the roads were all
flat, but in my area, very little is flat.


So, you are saying that no one lived in the area until automobiles
were available?


I like your logic. The area has probably been inhabited for about
10,000+ years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_of_the_Americas
Last time I checked, bicycles were not available for most of this time
span. Before bicycles, there were horses, oxen, and human transport,
which were livable, but not exactly ideal. Bicycles were an
improvement, followed by automobiles as a better improvement. The
locals did quite well with horses, mules, oxen, trains, and boats.

Incidentally, in 2002 there was a TV reality show with several modern
families trying to live like homesteaders on the Montana frontier of
1883:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_House
Obviously, no automobiles. Bicycles would have been possible, but
would have been rather quaint:
https://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+1883&tbm=isch
As I vaguely recall, of the 4 families, 3 did badly and would not have
survived the winter. One gave up. One cheated a little by finding a
modern bedspring. Their homes were more a survival exercise than
livable, with or without bicycles.




--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #304  
Old July 25th 18, 07:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 547
Default Making America into Amsterdam

rOn Tue, 24 Jul 2018 22:52:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:56:32 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 09:15:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:42:24 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

As I previously said, if one has a bike one doesn't need a car :-)


I'm not the "one" that can do it. I've previously mentioned my
attempts to do service calls on my bicycle. The technical problems
were easy. The stupid problem (strange bus transport rules,
unattended security, parts thieves, and potential damage to
electronics going over bumps) were not so easy.

I live about 1 mile from the main highway up a mostly paved road.
Checking Google Earth, there is an elevation rise of 465 ft. Average
slope is therefo
465 / 5280 = 8.8%
I can barely ride a bicycle up the hill. I find myself walking quite
often. I could not even imagine climbing the hill with a trailer full
of groceries, much less hauling a refrigerator (250-350 lbs). To be
fair, 50 years ago, I might have been able to do it, but not today.

It might be possible to survive without a car if the roads were all
flat, but in my area, very little is flat.


So, you are saying that no one lived in the area until automobiles
were available?


I like your logic. The area has probably been inhabited for about
10,000+ years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_of_the_Americas
Last time I checked, bicycles were not available for most of this time
span. Before bicycles, there were horses, oxen, and human transport,
which were livable, but not exactly ideal. Bicycles were an
improvement, followed by automobiles as a better improvement. The
locals did quite well with horses, mules, oxen, trains, and boats.


Actually, from all I can discover, draught animals, other then dogs,
were absent from the N.American scene from mankind's arrival, some
25,000 years ago, until the Spanish arrived in the 1500's, some 500
years ago.

Since there were no bicycles, horses, mules, oxen, trains and boats,
during that period the logic espoused would indicate that the area
lacked human inhabitants for that period :-?

Incidentally, in 2002 there was a TV reality show with several modern
families trying to live like homesteaders on the Montana frontier of
1883:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_House
Obviously, no automobiles. Bicycles would have been possible, but
would have been rather quaint:
https://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+1883&tbm=isch
As I vaguely recall, of the 4 families, 3 did badly and would not have
survived the winter. One gave up. One cheated a little by finding a
modern bedspring. Their homes were more a survival exercise than
livable, with or without bicycles.


My experience is that, "of course it is livable", but it is a hell of
a lot of work.

When I was in grade school my grand parents were still heating their
house with wood stoves. My grandfather cut his winter wood in
September. The whole month of it, every day, all day. By hand.
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #305  
Old July 25th 18, 07:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 547
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 22:52:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:56:32 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 09:15:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:42:24 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

As I previously said, if one has a bike one doesn't need a car :-)


I'm not the "one" that can do it. I've previously mentioned my
attempts to do service calls on my bicycle. The technical problems
were easy. The stupid problem (strange bus transport rules,
unattended security, parts thieves, and potential damage to
electronics going over bumps) were not so easy.

I live about 1 mile from the main highway up a mostly paved road.
Checking Google Earth, there is an elevation rise of 465 ft. Average
slope is therefo
465 / 5280 = 8.8%
I can barely ride a bicycle up the hill. I find myself walking quite
often. I could not even imagine climbing the hill with a trailer full
of groceries, much less hauling a refrigerator (250-350 lbs). To be
fair, 50 years ago, I might have been able to do it, but not today.

It might be possible to survive without a car if the roads were all
flat, but in my area, very little is flat.


So, you are saying that no one lived in the area until automobiles
were available?


I like your logic. The area has probably been inhabited for about
10,000+ years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_of_the_Americas
Last time I checked, bicycles were not available for most of this time
span. Before bicycles, there were horses, oxen, and human transport,
which were livable, but not exactly ideal. Bicycles were an
improvement, followed by automobiles as a better improvement. The
locals did quite well with horses, mules, oxen, trains, and boats.

Incidentally, in 2002 there was a TV reality show with several modern
families trying to live like homesteaders on the Montana frontier of
1883:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_House
Obviously, no automobiles. Bicycles would have been possible, but
would have been rather quaint:
https://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+1883&tbm=isch
As I vaguely recall, of the 4 families, 3 did badly and would not have
survived the winter. One gave up. One cheated a little by finding a
modern bedspring. Their homes were more a survival exercise than
livable, with or without bicycles.



I just have to comment :-) Sleeping without a "modern bedspring" is a
survival exercise?
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #306  
Old July 25th 18, 08:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:38:42 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

I just have to comment :-) Sleeping without a "modern bedspring" is a
survival exercise?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_House
The Clunes are found to have smuggled a modern
box-spring into their home.

As I recall from the show, the bed was a wooden frame, with ropes
laced at rather wide intervals. On top of that, some straw and some
blankets. That doesn't sound very comfortable. It was also
inspiration behind the term "sleep tight" which was in reference to
tightening the ropes. I don't recall if they were sleeping 2, 3, or 4
to a bed, but with such an arrangement, I presume that everyone rolled
towards the middle of the bed. I suspect they weren't getting much
sleep.

As they walked around their homestead, they found a 1920's(?) vintage
spring mattress. According to the rules, they were not allowed to use
anything made after than 1883(?), but they snuck it into the house
anyway and replaced the ropes with the spring mattress.

One of the problems I had with this "reality" show was that the
selection of participants was from among those LEAST likely to succeed
at living in the past. None had any survial training. None seemed to
be into camping or the outdoors. All were confirmed city slickers.
Thrust into an unfamiliar environment, their ability to adapt was
limited and probably destined to fail. Wanting a better bed to sleep
upon was part of that.

https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/frontierhouse/frontierlife/essay5_3.html
(See 2nd paragraph for comments on frontier beds)
--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #307  
Old July 25th 18, 08:42 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 547
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 00:00:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:38:42 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

I just have to comment :-) Sleeping without a "modern bedspring" is a
survival exercise?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_House
The Clunes are found to have smuggled a modern
box-spring into their home.

As I recall from the show, the bed was a wooden frame, with ropes
laced at rather wide intervals. On top of that, some straw and some
blankets. That doesn't sound very comfortable. It was also
inspiration behind the term "sleep tight" which was in reference to
tightening the ropes. I don't recall if they were sleeping 2, 3, or 4
to a bed, but with such an arrangement, I presume that everyone rolled
towards the middle of the bed. I suspect they weren't getting much
sleep.

As they walked around their homestead, they found a 1920's(?) vintage
spring mattress. According to the rules, they were not allowed to use
anything made after than 1883(?), but they snuck it into the house
anyway and replaced the ropes with the spring mattress.

One of the problems I had with this "reality" show was that the
selection of participants was from among those LEAST likely to succeed
at living in the past. None had any survial training. None seemed to
be into camping or the outdoors. All were confirmed city slickers.
Thrust into an unfamiliar environment, their ability to adapt was
limited and probably destined to fail. Wanting a better bed to sleep
upon was part of that.

https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/frontierhouse/frontierlife/essay5_3.html
(See 2nd paragraph for comments on frontier beds)


I've seen the remains of several "old" houses. Essentially the shacks
that the settlers lived in and they were hardly large enough for beds.
I can only assume that they slept on the floor.

Years ago my mother had a "History of the Town of Weare" (New
Hampshire) that recounted things that occurred during the early days.
"Back in the day" The Preacher was "paid" a gallon of brandy a year in
addition to his salary. One family who got there late in the year
lived the winter in a three sided shack. Three walls, a roof, and the
fireplace :-). They were said to have survived the winter eating corn
meal.
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #308  
Old July 25th 18, 04:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 7/25/2018 3:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

One of the problems I had with this "reality" show was that the
selection of participants was from among those LEAST likely to succeed
at living in the past. None had any survial training. None seemed to
be into camping or the outdoors. All were confirmed city slickers.
Thrust into an unfamiliar environment, their ability to adapt was
limited and probably destined to fail.


I'm always interested in how people lived in years past. My wife and I
recently finished watching the BBC series _The Victorian Farm_ and _The
Tudor Monastery Farm_. I love the book _Daily Life in Holland in the
year 1566_. ... and so on.

But it's important to realize these shows are TV productions, intended
to deliver eyeballs to advertisers. _Pioneer House_ would have gotten
far fewer viewers if the typical American couch potato couldn't identify
with the subjects.

And perversely, people like to see failure. Everyone looks at the videos
of Tour de France crashes, NASCAR wrecks, figure skating slips, etc.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #309  
Old July 25th 18, 07:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 7/25/2018 10:48 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/25/2018 3:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

One of the problems I had with this "reality" show was
that the
selection of participants was from among those LEAST
likely to succeed
at living in the past. None had any survial training.
None seemed to
be into camping or the outdoors. All were confirmed city
slickers.
Thrust into an unfamiliar environment, their ability to
adapt was
limited and probably destined to fail.


I'm always interested in how people lived in years past. My
wife and I recently finished watching the BBC series _The
Victorian Farm_ and _The Tudor Monastery Farm_. I love the
book _Daily Life in Holland in the year 1566_. ... and so on.

But it's important to realize these shows are TV
productions, intended to deliver eyeballs to advertisers.
_Pioneer House_ would have gotten far fewer viewers if the
typical American couch potato couldn't identify with the
subjects.

And perversely, people like to see failure. Everyone looks
at the videos of Tour de France crashes, NASCAR wrecks,
figure skating slips, etc.


I read this recently:

https://www.alibris.com/Trials-of-th...533?matches=83

Memoirs of a woman who homesteaded in Arkansas and
Mississippi late 1800s ~ early 1900s including near the
nascent Parchman's Farm. Written in the 1930s for a
depression-era writing contest but not published until 1992.
Fascinating detail of American life as lived then.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #310  
Old July 25th 18, 07:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 7/25/2018 2:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/25/2018 10:48 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/25/2018 3:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

One of the problems I had with this "reality" show was
that the
selection of participants was from among those LEAST
likely to succeed
at living in the past.Â* None had any survial training.
None seemed to
be into camping or the outdoors.Â* All were confirmed city
slickers.
Thrust into an unfamiliar environment, their ability to
adapt was
limited and probably destined to fail.


I'm always interested in how people lived in years past. My
wife and I recently finished watching the BBC series _The
Victorian Farm_ and _The Tudor Monastery Farm_. I love the
book _Daily Life in Holland in the year 1566_. ... and so on.

But it's important to realize these shows are TV
productions, intended to deliver eyeballs to advertisers.
_Pioneer House_ would have gotten far fewer viewers if the
typical American couch potato couldn't identify with the
subjects.

And perversely, people like to see failure. Everyone looks
at the videos of Tour de France crashes, NASCAR wrecks,
figure skating slips, etc.


I read this recently:

https://www.alibris.com/Trials-of-th...533?matches=83


Memoirs of a woman who homesteaded in Arkansas and Mississippi late
1800s ~ early 1900s including near the nascent Parchman's Farm.Â* Written
in the 1930s for a depression-era writing contest but not published
until 1992. Fascinating detail of American life as lived then.


OK! Just ordered it from www.abebooks.com


--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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