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Unsafe at any speed?-Path beside Beach Rd



 
 
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  #201  
Old May 10th 07, 08:27 AM posted to aus.bicycle
Theo Bekkers
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Posts: 1,182
Default Unsafe at any speed?-Path beside Beach Rd

Zebee Johnstone wrote:
In aus.bicycle on Thu, 10 May 2007 14:40:05 +0800
Theo Bekkers wrote:

That is,a nd was, my understanding of your, an Euan's, position.

1. You think anyone should be allowed to ride a bike without
training.
2. Anyone wanting to drive a car should have bicycle training as a
compulsory part of obtaining a licence.

So it follows that the only people properly, or formally, trained to
ride a bicycle will be the people driving cars, very few of whom
would ever ride a bicycle.


And what is this training about? Is it in bicycle mechanics like
starting and stopping and such, which either all need or none do, or
is it roadcraft?

And if it is roadcraft, is that how to read others, or is that how to
behave?

If it is how to behave, then will your trained riders know what the
untrained ones are going to do? Considering that the problem is to
solve drivers not knowing what cyclists are going to do, why train
people who are not going to cycle, but not train those who are?


Exactly. Would make more sense to insist bicycle riders have a driver's
licence. At least that way they would get the bicycle training. :-)

theo


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  #202  
Old May 10th 07, 11:21 PM posted to aus.bicycle
EuanB[_62_]
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Posts: 1
Default Unsafe at any speed?-Path beside Beach Rd


Theo Bekkers Wrote:
EuanB wrote:

You're mixing up two arguments.

Mandatory training to anyone who wishes to ride a bike? No, because
the benefits of an untrained rider outweigh the risks to society as a
whole.

Mandatory training to anyone who wishes to get behind the wheel of a
car? Yes, because understanding the limitations of cyclists is
crucial in understanding how to co-exist with them.


I'm getting confused. Are you saying that training for cyclists is not
necessary and should not be a requirement for road use,

Correct. Cycling is the most benign form of transport ou of walking,
driving or cycling. Even untrained, cyclists are not at substantially
greater risk of dying on the roads than trained drivers; they are safer
on the road than pedestrians.

Even in the UK where cycling is substanitially more dangerous than here
in Australia, you're between 10-14 times as likely to die on the road in
the UK as opposed to 4 times as likely in Australia, the benefits
outweigh the risks by 20:1. There is no good reason to require formal
training of cyclists, looked at holistically.


but bicycle training
should be compulsory for non-riders who want to drive a car?

Correct. The leading cause of death for cyclists is when they collide
with cars (or cars collide with them, to cover all angles.) Often this
is becasue drivers don't understand what it's like to be on a bike. The
same could be said of cyclists, that they don't know how to deal with
lorries because they've never driven one, for example, but cyclists
aren't making the choice of using a non-benign mode of transport. That
puts more responsibility on drivers.


--
EuanB

  #203  
Old May 11th 07, 05:24 AM posted to aus.bicycle
Theo Bekkers
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Posts: 1,182
Default Unsafe at any speed?-Path beside Beach Rd

EuanB wrote:
Theo Bekkers Wrote:


I'm getting confused. Are you saying that training for cyclists is
not necessary and should not be a requirement for road use,


Correct. Cycling is the most benign form of transport ou of walking,
driving or cycling. Even untrained, cyclists are not at substantially
greater risk of dying on the roads than trained drivers; they are
safer on the road than pedestrians.


Cycling is more bening than walking? How many deaths occurred in Australia
last year of pedestrian to pedestrian impacts? How many pedestrians
destroyed cars, cyclists?

Even in the UK where cycling is substanitially more dangerous than
here in Australia, you're between 10-14 times as likely to die on the
road in the UK as opposed to 4 times as likely in Australia, the
benefits outweigh the risks by 20:1. There is no good reason to
require formal training of cyclists, looked at holistically.


Cycle training is only required for people who don't ride bicycles!

but bicycle training
should be compulsory for non-riders who want to drive a car?


Correct. The leading cause of death for cyclists is when they collide
with cars (or cars collide with them, to cover all angles.) Often this
is becasue drivers don't understand what it's like to be on a bike.
The same could be said of cyclists, that they don't know how to deal
with lorries because they've never driven one, for example, but
cyclists aren't making the choice of using a non-benign mode of
transport. That puts more responsibility on drivers.


You're mad! Cycling's gone to your head. Take some pills mate. By your
reasoning anyone wanting to ride a bicycle should be required to take
pedestrian training, something not needed for actual pedestrians.

Theo


  #204  
Old May 11th 07, 06:00 AM posted to aus.bicycle
EuanB[_66_]
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Posts: 1
Default Unsafe at any speed?-Path beside Beach Rd


Theo Bekkers Wrote:
EuanB wrote:
Theo Bekkers Wrote:


I'm getting confused. Are you saying that training for cyclists is
not necessary and should not be a requirement for road use,


Correct. Cycling is the most benign form of transport ou of walking,
driving or cycling. Even untrained, cyclists are not at substantially
greater risk of dying on the roads than trained drivers; they are
safer on the road than pedestrians.


Cycling is more bening than walking? How many deaths occurred in
Australia
last year of pedestrian to pedestrian impacts? How many pedestrians
destroyed cars, cyclists?


How many muggings, murders commited by people riding bicycles? Not
many. How many committed by people walking? A large number.



Even in the UK where cycling is substanitially more dangerous than
here in Australia, you're between 10-14 times as likely to die on the
road in the UK as opposed to 4 times as likely in Australia, the
benefits outweigh the risks by 20:1. There is no good reason to
require formal training of cyclists, looked at holistically.


Cycle training is only required for people who don't ride bicycles!


How is that a coherent response to the above?



but bicycle training
should be compulsory for non-riders who want to drive a

car?

Correct. The leading cause of death for cyclists is when they collide
with cars (or cars collide with them, to cover all angles.) Often

this
is becasue drivers don't understand what it's like to be on a bike.
The same could be said of cyclists, that they don't know how to deal
with lorries because they've never driven one, for example, but
cyclists aren't making the choice of using a non-benign mode of
transport. That puts more responsibility on drivers.


You're mad! Cycling's gone to your head. Take some pills mate. By your
reasoning anyone wanting to ride a bicycle should be required to take
pedestrian training, something not needed for actual pedestrians.


Incorrect. Cyclists don't pose a large threat to pedestrians,
pedestrians pose a much larger threat to other pedestrians than other
cyclists do.


--
EuanB

  #205  
Old May 30th 07, 05:31 AM posted to aus.bicycle
Shane Stanley
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Posts: 223
Default Unsafe at any speed?-Path beside Beach Rd

In article ,
rooman wrote:

t'was coming back from Anzac Day in the city along Beach Road and saw a
nasty spill over on the path at Black Rock on the rise North of
Ricketts Point.


rooman: Was that the women who wrote the letter in this week's 'Bayside
Leader'?

--
Shane Stanley
  #206  
Old May 30th 07, 10:23 AM posted to aus.bicycle
rooman[_164_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Unsafe at any speed?-Path beside Beach Rd


Shane Stanley Wrote:
In article ,
rooman wrote:

t'was coming back from Anzac Day in the city along Beach Road and saw

a
nasty spill over on the path at Black Rock on the rise North of
Ricketts Point.


rooman: Was that the women who wrote the letter in this week's 'Bayside
Leader'?

--
Shane Stanley

yep,

Suzy... she wasnt well, but kept up good spirits in spite of her
pain...good to see she is up and about.... and she is keen to get back
on her bike..that's great.

I was her 6'+ sunshade as she lay on the path... good to know I have
some practical purposes left...

what do you think of the other comment in Opinon from "Marcus" of
Brighton? ...I felt when I read it, maybe _he_ should choose to go on
the Nepean if he wants a less interrupted high speed run to the CBD,
over Beach Rd...he reckons the path should be used by commuters as
their only peak hour route along Beach Rd and let him "flow" in his
cage ( till the next set of lights).


--
rooman

  #207  
Old May 30th 07, 01:42 PM posted to aus.bicycle
Shane Stanley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 223
Default Unsafe at any speed?-Path beside Beach Rd

In article ,
rooman wrote:

Suzy... she wasnt well, but kept up good spirits in spite of her
pain...good to see she is up and about.... and she is keen to get back
on her bike..that's great.


Yep. It's hard to regard a broken femur as anything other than bad news,
but it sounds like she was lucky not to do a lot worse.

I was her 6'+ sunshade as she lay on the path... good to know I have
some practical purposes left...


It seems you were appreciated. (And I have an opening for a large
windshade on wheels, if you're offering...)

what do you think of the other comment in Opinon from "Marcus" of
Brighton? ...I felt when I read it, maybe _he_ should choose to go on
the Nepean if he wants a less interrupted high speed run to the CBD,
over Beach Rd...he reckons the path should be used by commuters as
their only peak hour route along Beach Rd and let him "flow" in his
cage ( till the next set of lights).


Didn't you know? Remove the bikes from Beach Road in peak hour and "a
steady stream of traffic" will flow right into the CBD. And pollution is
the cyclists' fault. Talk about delusional.

Still, in one letter we're accused of bleating, malignant narcissism,
failing to recognise responsibilities, and being kamikaze zealots, naive
sacrificial pawns, luvvies (!), and of course red-light runners. I can
almost handle that, but I think being compared to a parked car was below
the belt.

--
Shane Stanley
 




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