A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Helmet News



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #71  
Old June 21st 18, 02:18 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,162
Default Helmet News

On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 20:40:16 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

What is the hangup with claiming helmets do not
help? Why isn't it enough just to not use
a helmet oneself and ignore whatever anyone
else is doing?


Why isn't it enough just to use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever
anyone else is doing?

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net



Ads
  #72  
Old June 21st 18, 04:44 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,063
Default Helmet News

On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 2:40:20 PM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
sms wrote:

OMG, there have been endless studies, all
that show a benefit to helmet usage to some
degree. The problem is not a lack of studies,
it's that those that are opposed to helmet
usage will ALWAYS nitpick some aspect of even
the most rigorous study, and proclaim that
the results are invalid.


What is the hangup with claiming helmets do not
help? Why isn't it enough just to not use
a helmet oneself and ignore whatever anyone
else is doing?


First, understand this disagreement has been debated here and in dozens of
other forums for decades. Over those years, people who promote or demand
helmet use have put out reams of lies and distortions.

Example: Stephen M. Scharf, who posts as "sms" claims there is still no
evidence that mandating helmets reduces cycling. He sometimes claims that
observed decreases (as in Australia and New Zealand) are coincidences, caused
by people playing more video games, or by increases in car traffic, or
whatever. He ignores the fact that the drops in cycling were quite sudden,
and happened exactly when helmets became mandatory; and that telephone surveys
confirmed that the helmet law was a major deterrent to cycling. Newer surveys
continue to corroborate that fact. Recently, when surveys were done to diagnose
the reasons for the failure of Melbourne's bike share scheme, the biggest
reason given was the helmet requirement.

And this matters to me. I don't think that we should be dissuading people from
riding bikes, either by imposing useless restrictions on riders, or by spouting
propaganda that makes cycling seem terribly risky. We don't push for helmets
for walkers, even though they suffer many more serious or fatal brain injuries
than bicyclists. We don't push for helmets for motorists, even though in the
U.S., well over 35,000 of them die despite seat belts and air bags. Why on
earth should we scare people about dying while bicycling, when in the U.S.
there are only about 800 bike fatalities per year, with fewer than half by
T.B.I.? (There are about 4500 annual pedestrian deaths in America, with
about 40% due to TBI. More pedestrians than bicyclists die per mile traveled.)

All this fear mongering is done to sell a plastic product that, despite some
cooked research, has brought no detectable improvement in fatalities or
concussions. People have wasted millions and millions of dollars on fragile
foam hats, and people now believe that every time the styrofoam is dented, it's
proof that they made a wise purchase, even a life-saving one. But despite
thousands of "It saved my life" stories, there simply has been no corresponding
drop in deaths. There has been an _increase_ in bike concussions. That should
tell us that most of the "saved my life" or "prevented a concussion" stories
must be mistaken.

So in summary: When there's nonsense spread about how terribly dangerous it is
to ride a bike, and how common brain injury is; about how wonderfully protective
a low-standard, expensive and fragile hat is; about how "Danger! Danger!"
warnings do no harm; about how mandating weird hats can't possibly discourage
riding... Well, sorry, but I respond.

- Frank Krygowski

  #73  
Old June 21st 18, 05:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,063
Default Helmet News

On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 2:48:08 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 6:56:08 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
My "more careful" still includes 40 mph downhills, riding in groups,
drafting, riding in city and suburban traffic, and a bit of riding in
the woods, on gravel, etc.

But for me, it includes lots and lots of "what if" anticipation and
attention to the road surface. What if there's gravel around that
downhill bend? What if that motorist tries to push into the roundabout
while I'm in the circle? What if that puddle is really a deep pothole?
What if the meeting goes late and I have to ride home in the dark? What
if that squirrely rider suddenly weaves into my path? What if that mud
across the bike trail is really slippery?


Except for those who ride blindfolded, most of us DO plan ahead.


It's not a binary thing, Jay. There are degrees of planning and levels of skill.
Some do it better than others. I think one way to tell who does it better is to
count crashes - ideally, crashes per mile.

Yes, we might make allowances for riding conditions. Perhaps a crash in a
criterium or road race shouldn't count against a person nearly as much. And
perhaps if a person is 100% committed to riding in any weather, they should
get a bonus. But I've known more than one person who gave up riding because
they crashed too much. That tells me there is very likely a bell curve at
work here. I try to be at the good end of that curve.

Does it equate to slowing down? Only sometimes. Most often it means being
observant, knowing how to prepare and be ready in case something comes up.
Preparing and being ready may be things like changing lane position (usually
further left) and covering the brakes. It means pedaling continuously when
approaching a motorist who may pull out, so he doesn't expect me to stop for
him. It means looking way ahead to plan the best path through all the
potholes, not just the one in front. It means downshifting before a stop so
I'm in a good starting gear, and knowing how to start quickly when needed.
And so on.

I'm not saying you're not a good rider. But I think it's likely that one's
crash history is determined by the balance between the risks one takes and
one's skill level. I think some people take more risks than their skill level
justifies. (Hell, I've seen that for sure.)

Above all, if a person has a good riding record, I wouldn't put it off to luck,
any more than I'd say LeBron James is just lucky at shooting baskets.

- Frank Krygowski
  #74  
Old June 21st 18, 11:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,377
Default Helmet News

Joy Beeson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 20:40:16 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

What is the hangup with claiming helmets do not
help? Why isn't it enough just to not use
a helmet oneself and ignore whatever anyone
else is doing?


Why isn't it enough just to use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever
anyone else is doing?


+1

--
duane
  #75  
Old June 21st 18, 01:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,035
Default Helmet News

Joy Beeson wrote:

What is the hangup with claiming helmets do
not help? Why isn't it enough just to not
use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever
anyone else is doing?


Why isn't it enough just to use a helmet
oneself and ignore whatever anyone else
is doing?


Personally I don't use a helmet, but isn't that
what happens? Who is ranting about helmet use?
No one here and no one I know. But perhaps in
the road bike and MTB world people do that,
what do I know.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #76  
Old June 21st 18, 01:17 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 195
Default Helmet News

On 21/06/2018 8:03 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Joy Beeson wrote:

What is the hangup with claiming helmets do
not help? Why isn't it enough just to not
use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever
anyone else is doing?


Why isn't it enough just to use a helmet
oneself and ignore whatever anyone else
is doing?


Personally I don't use a helmet, but isn't that
what happens? Who is ranting about helmet use?
No one here and no one I know. But perhaps in
the road bike and MTB world people do that,
what do I know.


In my experience, the ranting goes on mostly here on RBT. In the real
world people use helmets or don't. I guess the argument is really about
mandatory helmet laws but it becomes a religious discussion here. It's
not that difficult to search past posts...

  #77  
Old June 21st 18, 01:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,035
Default Helmet News

Frank Krygowski wrote:

All this fear mongering [...]


Perhaps this is an American issue. Here, the
streets are filled with people who ride their
bikes every day, many several times a day, and
very, very few use helmets. Riding a bike is
not considered dangerous!

The road bike people and the MTB people use
helmets but they are a very small minority.

Intuitively, I feel like if you ride a road
bike at that speed and have an accident
involving traffic, that sounds like a very
serious situation with or without a helmet, but
I think I'd use one anyway.

With the MTB people, I don't see why you can't
simply trip over a stock, and hit your head
into a rock. I don't see why a helmet wouldn't
reduce the impact?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #78  
Old June 21st 18, 01:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 340
Default Helmet News

On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 08:17:01 -0400, Duane
wrote:

On 21/06/2018 8:03 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Joy Beeson wrote:

What is the hangup with claiming helmets do
not help? Why isn't it enough just to not
use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever
anyone else is doing?

Why isn't it enough just to use a helmet
oneself and ignore whatever anyone else
is doing?


Personally I don't use a helmet, but isn't that
what happens? Who is ranting about helmet use?
No one here and no one I know. But perhaps in
the road bike and MTB world people do that,
what do I know.


In my experience, the ranting goes on mostly here on RBT. In the real
world people use helmets or don't. I guess the argument is really about
mandatory helmet laws but it becomes a religious discussion here. It's
not that difficult to search past posts...



True, although I did once have another cyclist demand to know why I
wasn't wearing my helmet. It was a cross language thing with him not
speaking much English and me not admitting to speak anything :-)

I smiled and nodded and he did, upon leaving, tell me that "helmets
were much safer" with me smiling and nodding all round the place.

I would also say that I've been in crashes severe enough to break
bones twice i the past 8 or 9 years and in neither case was my head
injured. Laying there with my hip in traction but my head never took a
bump :-)
  #79  
Old June 21st 18, 03:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,418
Default Helmet News

On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 9:13:45 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 2:48:08 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 6:56:08 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
My "more careful" still includes 40 mph downhills, riding in groups,
drafting, riding in city and suburban traffic, and a bit of riding in
the woods, on gravel, etc.

But for me, it includes lots and lots of "what if" anticipation and
attention to the road surface. What if there's gravel around that
downhill bend? What if that motorist tries to push into the roundabout
while I'm in the circle? What if that puddle is really a deep pothole?
What if the meeting goes late and I have to ride home in the dark? What
if that squirrely rider suddenly weaves into my path? What if that mud
across the bike trail is really slippery?


Except for those who ride blindfolded, most of us DO plan ahead.


It's not a binary thing, Jay. There are degrees of planning and levels of skill.
Some do it better than others. I think one way to tell who does it better is to
count crashes - ideally, crashes per mile.

Yes, we might make allowances for riding conditions. Perhaps a crash in a
criterium or road race shouldn't count against a person nearly as much. And
perhaps if a person is 100% committed to riding in any weather, they should
get a bonus. But I've known more than one person who gave up riding because
they crashed too much. That tells me there is very likely a bell curve at
work here. I try to be at the good end of that curve.

Does it equate to slowing down? Only sometimes. Most often it means being
observant, knowing how to prepare and be ready in case something comes up..
Preparing and being ready may be things like changing lane position (usually
further left) and covering the brakes. It means pedaling continuously when
approaching a motorist who may pull out, so he doesn't expect me to stop for
him. It means looking way ahead to plan the best path through all the
potholes, not just the one in front. It means downshifting before a stop so
I'm in a good starting gear, and knowing how to start quickly when needed..
And so on.

I'm not saying you're not a good rider. But I think it's likely that one's
crash history is determined by the balance between the risks one takes and
one's skill level. I think some people take more risks than their skill level
justifies. (Hell, I've seen that for sure.)

Above all, if a person has a good riding record, I wouldn't put it off to luck,
any more than I'd say LeBron James is just lucky at shooting baskets.


Oh god, now you're LeBron James. And yes, you are saying that I and everyone else who has crashed more than you is not as good a rider as you. That is the clear and pompous message.

Sure, if I spent all my time on the bunny slopes, I would never crash. Regrettably, my world is not a bunny slope -- particularly during fall, winter and spring. The Portland study showed an inverse correlation between experience and injury rate, probably because those who actually ride -- and ride in inclement weather with uncertain traction -- are at more risk. https://tinyurl.com/y86dashy In contrast, the sunny day creep-along riders will have lower injury rates.

I am about to go to work in some of the loudest thunder I've heard in 30 years and, of course, pouring rain -- but it's warm-ish rain. After a dry spell, the roads will be slippery where they are not submerged. I am hoping that my super-Frank sonar will help me locate submerged potholes and other obstacles.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #80  
Old June 21st 18, 04:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,316
Default Helmet News

On 6/21/2018 8:17 AM, Duane wrote:
On 21/06/2018 8:03 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Joy Beeson wrote:

What is the hangup with claiming helmets do
not help? Why isn't it enough just to not
use a helmet oneself and ignore whatever
anyone else is doing?

Why isn't it enough just to use a helmet
oneself and ignore whatever anyone else
is doing?


Personally I don't use a helmet, but isn't that
what happens? Who is ranting about helmet use?
No one here and no one I know. But perhaps in
the road bike and MTB world people do that,
what do I know.


In my experience, the ranting goes on mostly here on RBT.* In the real
world people use helmets or don't.


Oh, get real, Duane! How can you pretend that the "ranting" goes on only
here?

How often have you signed up for an invitational bike ride that did not
say "You MUST wear a helmet!"?

Are you unaware of the many bike clubs having rules requiring helmets on
all rides?

Can you enter a bike race anywhere without putting on a helmet?

Have you not seen the dozens, perhaps hundreds of "bike safety"
publications that begin with "Always wear a helmet"? Many of them even
stop there, saying nothing about lights at night, rules of the road,
watching for road hazards, etc. Just "Always wear a helmet."

And the True Believers here and elsewhere probably never ride without
the magic hat; but I can assure you, when I ride I sometimes get
"Where's your helmet??" Sometimes it's an honest question, but more
often it's an obnoxious attack. The last time I got that, maybe a month
ago, it was from a woman who blared her horn trying to get me off the road.

And yes, some of the issue is about laws forbidding bicycling without
helmets. Helmet skeptics never try to pass laws forbidding helmets; but
the helmet fanatics have passed laws in many jurisdictions making it
illegal to ride a bike at all without that weird hat, even in the tamest
circumstances.

Since you're in Canada, Duane: A few years ago, my wife and I were
stopped in some tiny New Brunswick town. We had biked from our B&B about
three blocks to a restaurant (probably the only one in town). After
dinner on that Sunday evening, we biked back by totally quiet, zero
traffic residential streets. About a block from our B&B, a policewoman
came upon us and hit the cruiser lights. Here's how it went:

She: "Where are you from?" Us: "Ohio, in the United States."

She: "Don't you know you must have a helmet to ride a bicycle?" Us:
"Even ADULTS???" (Disclosu I already knew that.)

She: "Yes! That's the law everywhere in Canada!" Me: "No it's not! I
_know_ that's not the law in Ontario!"

She: "Well, they must have some special law. Helmets are required
everywhere else in Canada. Where are you going?" Me: "Our B&B is right
there." She: "Well, don't let me see you riding without a helmet."

(So what effect do you think this has on the amount of bicycling in that
little town?)

Oh, and note again: There's never been a cop saying "Hey you! Take off
that helmet if you're riding a bike!"

--
- Frank Krygowski
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
HELMET NEWS datakoll Techniques 0 May 7th 13 12:34 PM
Cyclists' helmet cameras (BBC 1 News, 1pm) brass monkey UK 0 February 2nd 11 01:29 AM
Great news on the helmet front! Squashme UK 0 May 15th 09 09:13 PM
In the News: Sizing up the sports helmet market Jason Spaceman Techniques 3 July 28th 08 12:35 AM
The anti Helmet on this news group gareth price UK 17 August 19th 06 04:32 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.