Another reason economists are dorks!

"Pete" wrote:

"Kevan Smith" /\/\ wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 00:24:25 GMT, Mark Hickey from
Habanero
Cycles wrote:

Yet that all seems to be GWB's fault all the sudden?

Let's just say right out front what GWB is at fault for:

1) Lying to the American public about the threat Iraq posed America. As it
turns
out, Iraq was no threat to the U.S. There were -- and are -- no WMD there.

No. There were. The UN knew it, Saddam knew it, you and I knew it.

Where they are now is the question. Did Saddam get rid of all that stuff?
Maybe, maybe not. But if he did....he merely had to provide proof of that.
As was required by the terms of the cease fire agreement.

Heck, even Jacques Chirac and Hans Blix didn't try to say there were
no WMD in Iraq - that would have been STUPID (are you paying
attention, Kev?).

Let me break it down in simple terms...

1991 - after damaging information is released by an Iraqi defector,
Iraq admits to having large stores of WMD
2003 - As of now, no proof has been shown that Iraq has destroyed ANY
of the WMD they admitted having in '91.
2003 - If Saddam actually HAS gotten rid of all his WMD, he has a
choice. Show proof that he's destroyed the WMD and avoid being run
out of power in a war he can't win, OR refuse to turn over proof of
the destruction and be killed or at best exiled.

So, yes - it IS possible that Saddam actually dutifully destroyed all
the WMD he had, but for some unthinkable reason neglected to provide
any proof. Of course, it's equally possible pigs really CAN fly...
Either way, there was (and is) no reason to believe that Iraq didn't
have the WMD they had in '91 (at the very least).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

(Keven Ruf) wrote:

Mark Hickey wrote in message . ..

One kind of "glasses" I try not to wear too much are those shaped like
TV screens - they cause all kinds of distortion... ;-)

Just curious, what IS your source for news then? I have trouble
finding a single story that supports the reasons the US government
gave for going to war in Iraq (that they were a threat to the US, that
they supported the terrorists that attacked the US, etc.), and I have
trouble seeing any stories that indicate that our sojourn there has
had any success at all. Same with Afganistan, where the Taliban is
back in power in vurtually the whole country and the heroin has
started flowing again in actual support of actual terrorism.

I rely on a lot of internet news sources, C-SPAN is a great way to get
"unfiltered news", and Fox is a lot more objective than all the other
US news networks put together. For example, most US news viewers
somehow missed the fact Iraq admitted to having huge stockpiles of WMD
in '91 - simply because that wasn't deemed "newsworthy". Instead they
were treated to a non-stop barrage of "pundits" who droned on and on
about how there MUST not be any weapons since we haven't found 'em
yet.

Where are the news stories that support your point of view? I hope
you are not one of those who cling to an arguement because you made a
public statement and feel you must save face and stand by it despite
the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Let's face it, all the
reasons given for going to war have turned out to be lies.

In which universe? Was Saddam a destabilizing influence in the
near/middle east? Yep. Was he a despotic tyrant who killed hundreds
of thousands of his own people? Yep. Did Iraq admit having many tons
of chemical/biological weapons which the UN had issued resolution
after resolution to get Iraq to turn over? Yep. Did Saddam directly
support terrorist organizations? Yep.

Of course, to listen to the Democrats lately, the only reason we went
to war was because Iraq was trying to buy uranium from Africa. How
short are the memories of the average citizens... (and how desparate
are the Dems to discredit GWB).

And since
the oil has started flowing before the water, well, you be the judge
of why we really invaded Iraq.

Uhhhh, you might want to check on how the Iraqi economy works. It's
pretty obvious that without oil revenue, repairing the horrendously
abused (pre-war) infrastructure would take many, many years. The key
to Iraq's future IS oil - always has been. Does this surprise you?

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 09:42:49 -0500, wrote:
Is not.

Is too.

Is not.

Is too.

Is not.

Is too.

Is not.

I'm telling!

MOM!!!!! Kevan keeps saying "Is not."! Now he's making
faces at me!

--
http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace
a slippery Tava dissonantly enters yonder a red play...
9:42:12 AM 31 July 2003
--
Rick Onanian

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 09:49:55 -0500, wrote:
War is wrong, period. War does not lead to peace, but only to more war

War is integrated into human genes, culture, and everything
else. Further, with the overpopulation of this planet, it's
impossible to have any less war than we have, and it's amazing
how little there is.

Now, if we could eliminate a few billion people, there could
be a lot less war...but then, how do we do that? I guess we
will just have to wait for AIDS and cancer and everything
else to do it, or else we'll all starve to death.

Then again, somebody could create Stephen King's "Superflu"...

Realistically, none of the above will happen, the population
will never shrink (and will most likely continue to grow),
and there will be more and more war. It doesn't help that we
really like our culture, but some cultures promote the active
hate of ours.

You should join a fundamentalist islamic regime. There, you
can fight for what you believe in.

--
http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace
I'm having a BIG BANG THEORY!!
9:49:12 AM 31 July 2003
--
Rick Onanian

Mark Hickey wrote:

I rely on a lot of internet news sources, C-SPAN is a great way to get
"unfiltered news", and Fox is a lot more objective than all the other
US news networks put together.

Wow, Mark, you do irony as well as you make bikes! "Fox News" is an
oxymoron.

I heard a business guy say this once: CNN is for the CEO crowd, CNBC
is for the CFO crowd, "Fox News" is for the UFO crowd. Classic!
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/

Mark Hickey wrote

(Chalo) wrote:

I think it's implausible that
the US govt has any intention to set up a democratic system for some
brown folks whom they only ever intended to economically exploit.

My, my, my... feeling cynical today, are we? Have you read something
indicating we're keeping their oil revenue? No? Hmmmm.....

"We"? No, not me; not you. Halliburton. Kellogg Brown & Root.
Bechtel. Shrubby's friends, IOW. For, ahem, "services rendered".

--and substituting a worse one, that shoots innocent folks in the
streets without warning and can't even keep the lights on? Not much.

"A worse one", huh? You might want to take a reality pill, Chalo.

Under Saddam, an Iraqi could have a reasonable expectation of *driving
somewhere* without being machinegunned into chum because some heavily
armed 18-year-old mongoloid got flinchy.

Read the news-- the real news, like from outside the USA. Civilians
are getting murdered every day by "our" boys over there-- folks that
even the occupation forces do not accuse of any wrongdoing. They are
just the latest part of the mountain of "collateral damage" inflicted
so that the US govt can control the petroleum economy. Then there's
the pervasive unfounded detention (and often torture) of ordinary
civilians who probably managed to avoid trouble for years under
Saddam. Add to this the, um, "confiscation" of money and other
property turned up in random searches of civilians by US soldiers.
Fox News won't tell you about it, but it's there.

I just don't see anything Saddam was accused of that isn't being
perpetrated by Americans in Iraq as we speak.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...7/29/MN268.DTL
http://www.khilafah.com/home/categor...D=7911&TagID=2
http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/stor...954&p=756y966x

Chalo Colina

"one of the six billion" wrote in message
...

"Mark Hickey" wrote in message
...

So tell me - how many US lives IS having a democracy in the near east
worth? What IS the price for liberating 25,000,000 Iraqis from an
oppresive regime?


Hello.... we have not installed a democracy over there nor liberated
anyone. The only thing we've done is start pumping oil, and give American
corporations rights to control various aspects of infastructure that have
not been provided. As of now the state of that country is in far worse
condition than before we got there.

What makes you think our murder and plunder won't end up just like
Afghanistan. There's a perfect example of a pipeline and a puppet
government now installed and a country left worse.

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercuryne...aq/6429206.htm
" L. Paul Bremer, the U.S. civilian administrator for Iraq, predicted
Thursday that general elections could be held within a year to form a
government to replace the U.S.-appointed Governing Council, which was
announced two weeks ago."

"It's certainly not unrealistic to think that we could have elections by
midyear 2004," Bremer said during a tour of the partially refurbished Iraqi
Foreign Ministry. "And when a sovereign government is installed, the
coalition . . . will cede authority to the government and my job here will
be over."


http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/det...773&y=2003&m=8
"Aspiring to end the anarchy of the post-war, Iraq's Governing Council named
its first president as a group of Iraqi refugees who languished 12 years in
a Saudi camp returned home.
But hopes for the future were mitigated by fresh attacks by insurgents and
the release of another audiotape the Central Intelligence Agency believes
carries Saddam Hussein's voice taunting US troops.
The instability has tried the patience of Iraqis, who expect the US to
deliver on promises of a better life.
But World Bank president James Wolfensohn, on a one-day tour of Baghdad,
said aid might be a year away.
"At some point that [aid] will happen but as you know, there is a need first
to have a constitution, to have a government," he said.
Still, betting on a brighter future, more than 240 Iraqi refugees returned
on Wednesday to their native soil after 12 years living in the squalid Rafha
refugee camp in the barren desert plains of northern Saudi Arabia.
The 244 refugees reached the port of Umm Qasr and then headed up to the
southern city of Basra in buses.
Meanwhile, the US-sponsored interim Governing Council cleared a hurdle on
Wednesday when it named Ibrahim Jafari, from the Shi'ite fundamentalist Dawa
party, as its first president in a nine-man monthly rotation.
He will be succeeded by two fellow Shi'ites: the Pentagon-backed Ahmed
Chalabi and Iyad Allawi, a former Baathist and longtime member of the exiled
opposition.
The rotation includes five Shi'ite Muslims, two Sunni and two Kurdish
members of the 25-strong council, a microcosm of Iraq's rich diversity."

"I. On the Fate of Uday and Qusay
Face to Face with the Truth
An editorial by the editor-in-chief of the independent weekly Al-'Ahd
Al-Jadeed (The New Era) welcomed the death of Saddam's sons: "Yesterday, the
Iraqis happily welcomed the death of the greatest symbols of evil, of
torment and degradation of the Iraqi people. [5]ery few nations in the world
suffered such humiliation ]as Iraqis suffered] and abuse from those who,
regretfully, died at the hands of the occupiers, while the Iraqi people were
unable to stand face to face with those murderers and exact revenge from
those savage executioners who engaged in abnormal terror against the whole
nation, the army, a woman, a young woman, a young man, teenagers, innocent
old men, and mothers who had tears on their cheeks during years of torture.
"


Give it time.

Pete

Kevan Smith /\/\ wrote:

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:48:29 GMT, Mark Hickey from Habanero
Cycles wrote:

Oh, and China is a "far worse regime than Saddam could have ever
dreamed?". Heh heh heh. Where DO you come up with this stuff.

Ever heard of the Cultural Revolution? How many _millions_ did that kill? Saddam
was a piker compared to Mao. And in recent memory, I can recall Tianamen Square.
That certainly was a nice way to deal with people wanting freedom, eh?

There have been more than a few "regime changes" in China since 1949.
The current government is much more progressive than Mao's (though
there is obviously lots of room for improvement).

Besides, the Cultural Revolution was made up of people pretty much
like you (idealistic to the point of absurdity) - and got WAY out of
hand. Mao was a lousy administrator and let it happen, but didn't
really orchestrate it.

But if you'd really rather have been an Iraqi living under Saddam than
a Chinese person living in modern China, I guess we have to agree to
disagree.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Terry Morse wrote:

Mark Hickey wrote:

I rely on a lot of internet news sources, C-SPAN is a great way to get
"unfiltered news", and Fox is a lot more objective than all the other
US news networks put together.

Wow, Mark, you do irony as well as you make bikes! "Fox News" is an
oxymoron.

I heard a business guy say this once: CNN is for the CEO crowd, CNBC
is for the CFO crowd, "Fox News" is for the UFO crowd. Classic!

If you REALLY think CNN and CNBC are "balanced", Al Sharpton probably
seems a little too conservative to you... ;-) Fox has its share of
obvious conservatives, but ALSO their fair share of card-carrying
liberals. They go out of their way to invite those who disagree with
them to state their case. And that's why Fox is killing the network
news - people do get tired of getting only one side.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Kevan Smith /\/\ wrote:

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:04:03 GMT, Mark Hickey from Habanero
Cycles wrote:

Duh. Who "picked" Thomas Jefferson?

For what? He had an extensive history of public service culminating in his
election as President.

Oh, so the people DON'T have to pick their leaders, huh? Just appoint
the most talented out of the available pool. Just what the US is
doing.

I get SO confused with your "logic".

A bunch of white guys appointed themselves and took it from there.

Fast forward a couple hundred years and history repeats itself in
Iraq.

Hey, it worked last time! It will this time too.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame