Driver license test - questions about peds & cyclists?

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:32:02 +1100, Humbug wrote:

Get to a caravan park at about four in the arvo and relax with a cuppa
while you watch 'em try and back a 'van into a spot. It's good for a
giggle...:-)

On a canoe club trip to Austria one year a bunch of us were doing just that
(although I think it was bottles of beer rather than cuppas). Eventually
we'd had as much as we could take and offered to lend the guy a hand. I
don't think he realised what we meant until we all grabbed a bit of the
caravan and bounced it sideways into the right place.

Graeme

Graeme Dods wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 09:01:37 +0800, Theo Bekkers wrote:

The Police
advice here in WA is now that, if you're tuning right at a
roundabout (taking the third exit) you should indicate right when
you enter the roundabout. i.e. treat it as if the roundabout isn't
there, then indicate left when you about to exit.

The mini-roundabouts are usually treated as it they aren't there,
i.e. you indicate on approach but not on exit. It's made easier as
they are almost always used at junctions of 3 or 4 roads, rarely
more, so it's pretty clear from your initial indication where you're
going.

Yup, that is what the Police here say too, but the road rules say different.
At what point does a mini-ra become a proper roundabout? You see obviously
confused drivers, and reciprocating anger, at every small and medium-sized
roundabout.

Theo

Markus Imhof wrote:
In article ,
"Ian George" wrote:

cfsmtb wrote:
This is probably a question that should be posed over at aus.cars.
Anyway for those of you with licenses, do you recall *anything*
either in handbooks or the computer tests that directly related to
pedestrians or cyclists?

Today the media is full of depressing news about the Mildura deaths,
the police admit they're bewildered over the Vic road toll and
there's more defeatist ****ing and moaning about aggressive road
behaviour.

At the Connecting Cycling Conference last Thursday, Dr John Pucher
demonstrated how in the German drivers license - 30 / 40% of the
questions directly pertaining to peds/cyclists interactions.
Suburban zones have a strict 30km limit, the Autobahns are quite
another matter!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn

Unless something has changed recently, the speed limit in built-up
areas in Germany is 50kph, around 30mph. A 30kph/18mph speed limit
would be impractical for a car.


Hate to barge in, since I'm not in .oz, but we have several speed
limits:


Usenet would be a pretty dull place if no-one barged in, I reckon.

General limit on Autobahn: none (but a lot of specific limits)
General limit outside cities: 100 kph
General limit inside cities: 50 kph
specific limit inside cities: often 30 kph on minor roads, i.e. roads
used by pass-through traffic are only subject to the general limit of
50 kph, but residential/side roads are often limited to 30 kph with a
zonal limit ('Tempo 30 Zone'; not sure about the wording - with an
ordinary limit, the signs are repeated along the road, with a zonal
limit, all roads entering the zone are marked accordingly with a
special sign). specific limit inside residential areas: occasionally,
streets in residential areas are also marked as 'quiet' streets
('Verkehrsberuhigter Bereich', again not sure about the translation;
in these areas, pedestrians and playing kids have right of way,
driving/riding is only allowed at walking speed).

Yep, that was sort of my point. We are seeing that implemented here in
Australia too, shared zones and the like, as I said somewhere in another
post. I was only taking issue with the OP's somewhat misleading inference
that this differs in some vastly material way from what we have here. It
really doesn't, the main difference is that we lack (with the exception of
the Stuart Highway, which is basically in the middle of the desert) the
unrestricted Autobahn limits.

In recent implementations, using your headings above as a guide, we have:

Maximum Speed (Limited Access Special Zones) 110km/h
General Speed Limited Access Freeway 100km/h
Open Road Limit (Highway) 100km/h
City Limited Access divided Roads (Collectors) 70km/h
City Sub-Collectors 60km/h
Access Streets 50km/h unless marked otherwise
Special zones (Schools, Shared and Similar) 20km/h - 40km/h

So we do realistically have a model in road laws that is essentially
similar, although the infrastructure and then by definition deployment of
restrictions is less mature than in Europe generally (Germany and Holland in
particular).

On another note: although some percentage of the driving test
questions may be targeted at vehicle/ped/cycle interaction, a lot of
drivers seem to forget these very quickly :-(

Is the license test there still as comprehensive as it used to be? Does it
include manatory skills training, or has it moved toward the pathetic
one-off assessment based system used here? Until the focus of legislation
and enforcement turns from revenue generation on freeways and limited access
roads (which are one area that could take increased speed reasonably safely)
to comprehensive driver training and education, and enforcement in the areas
where speed actually does pose a risk, I can't see the situation here
improving. I think you'd be appalled at how little actual training and / or
skill is required for people to get out on the road over here.

Ian

Tamyka Bell wrote:
Theo Bekkers wrote:

Bleve wrote:
Theo Bekkers wrote:

From my experience, I would rather ride on the road than on a shared
path. Or even a non-shared path.

Most of the time, so do I. But, I choose to use shared paths at night
in foul weather if I can, as I think in that instance that the risk of
being hit by a car is greater than I want to accept. Every ride is a
concious risk-management decision.

My experience of night-time riding is that the road is lit, paths are not
lit, paths are littered.

Theo

I think I'm more visible on the road at night, than I am during peak
hour. Like Theo, I choose the roads at night because they're lit and
generally have a better surface.

Generally I agree, but if you notice the "in foul weather" that I
wrote, that may alter your interpretation.. When it's foggy, pelting
with rain etc*, I'll take my chances on the paths before mixing it with
cars. I have a good headlight and ride cautiously on paths at night.

* I ride everywhere, this is a regular occurance in winter in
Melbourne.

On 2006-02-22, Bleve (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
with rain etc*
....
* I ride everywhere, this is a regular occurance in winter in
Melbourne.

What!? Shirley you jest!

--
TimC
It typically takes 25-30 gallons of petrol/diesel to fully-consume an
average-sized body under ideal conditions. That I am conversant with
this level of detail should serve as an indication of why the wise man
does not ask me questions about MS-Windows. --Tanuki on ASR

In article ,
"Ian George" wrote:

Markus Imhof wrote:
In article ,
"Ian George" wrote:

cfsmtb wrote:
This is probably a question that should be posed over at aus.cars.
Anyway for those of you with licenses, do you recall *anything*
.....

On another note: although some percentage of the driving test
questions may be targeted at vehicle/ped/cycle interaction, a lot of
drivers seem to forget these very quickly :-(

Is the license test there still as comprehensive as it used to be? Does it
include manatory skills training, or has it moved toward the pathetic
one-off assessment based system used here?

'Driving Test' actually requires:
- mandatory theory lessons (sitting in a classroom while someone
explains about behaviour in traffic)
- mandatory driving lessons (including night, autobahn and, if you want
a licence to tow a trailer, driving with that trailer. Yes, you now need
a licence for trailers now, at least for the larger ones. Don't care
much about that - with my old licence, I can basically tow everything
that the car can handle).
- Theory test (multiple choice)
- practical driving test

In addition to the mandatory lessons, you'll usually need some more
training in order to pass the driving tests. Reasons for failing can be
many: a friend of mine didn't swith on the wipers in a light drizzle -
failed. I had my second test on that day - the first time I failed
becaus I was driving too slow.


Just don't ask me about the current licensing system - when I made my
license, there were 5 licenses (trucks to small motorcycles). Now,
there's about a dozen....

Bye
Markus

In article ,
"Resound" wrote:

Hate to barge in, since I'm not in .oz, but we have several speed limits:

General limit on Autobahn: none (but a lot of specific limits)
General limit outside cities: 100 kph
General limit inside cities: 50 kph
specific limit inside cities: often 30 kph on minor roads, i.e. roads
....
I'm curious now. How heavily is this enforced? (I don't recall ever seeing
speed cameras or police patrolling quiet suburban side streets in Melbourne)
Do you know what their attitude toward bicycles is with regards to this
limit? I know that I'd be well in danger of getting pulled over in a 30kph
zone as my bike's not fitted with a speedo. (no, I dont have a
computer...I'm a commuter)

30 kph: rarely
50 kph: occasionally

higher limits and specific limits: more often, often with fixed cameras.

Regarding bicycles: we have a curious situation here that the general 50
kph limit only applies to _motorized_ vehicles, not bicycles. Although
most roads were you could hit (or exceed) 50 kph with a bicycle have
mandatory bike paths/lanes - where you're lucky if you can safely ride
20 kph.
30 kph for bicycles is valid and, if there's a speed measurement, are
enforced. There are a few (very few) riders on d.r.f. who framed their
speeding ticket :-)
Regarding the speedo: it's not exactly required for cars, too. You just
have to comply to the limit - how you do that is your responsibility.

Bye
Markus

Bleve wrote:

Tamyka Bell wrote:
Theo Bekkers wrote:

Bleve wrote:
Theo Bekkers wrote:

From my experience, I would rather ride on the road than on a shared
path. Or even a non-shared path.

Most of the time, so do I. But, I choose to use shared paths at night
in foul weather if I can, as I think in that instance that the risk of
being hit by a car is greater than I want to accept. Every ride is a
concious risk-management decision.

My experience of night-time riding is that the road is lit, paths are not
lit, paths are littered.

Theo

I think I'm more visible on the road at night, than I am during peak
hour. Like Theo, I choose the roads at night because they're lit and
generally have a better surface.

Generally I agree, but if you notice the "in foul weather" that I
wrote, that may alter your interpretation.. When it's foggy, pelting
with rain etc*, I'll take my chances on the paths before mixing it with
cars. I have a good headlight and ride cautiously on paths at night.

* I ride everywhere, this is a regular occurance in winter in
Melbourne.

My bad, I read "at night/in foul weather", i.e. I read OR rather than
AND. Tsk tsk Tam.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:00:28 +0100, Markus Imhof wrote:

including night, autobahn and, if you want
a licence to tow a trailer, driving with that trailer. Yes, you now need
a licence for trailers now, at least for the larger ones.

Good idea. The amount of people you see towing a trailer that have
absolutely *no* idea is ridiculous and rather scarey considering some of
them are towing bloody big and heavy boats or caravans [1]! I was lucky
that my family had a trailer when I was young so my dad always told me
about how to tow a trailer for years before I needed to. Then I ended up
teaching friends how to tow and reverse a huge canoe trailer being towed by
a minibus. It's amazing just how much you realise you didn't know when you
start teaching someone else! Thanks to that experience, it's now a method I
use of checking how well someone has learnt something; watching them trying
to teach someone else.

Graeme

[1] Might be a good time to post this link again
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...40551710935964