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#31
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Steel frames and le Tour
On Jul 10, 9:05*am, Bret Wade wrote:
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: There is zero reason any rider in the Tour of France should be a on a steel frame and many reasons (both economic, performance and logistical they should not). Agreed. They're all way too young to be retro-grouches. Bret Heh heh! I remember the olden days when you could win the TDF ridining a PX-10. I think the PX stood for "Piece of eXcrement". -Paul |
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#32
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Steel frames and le Tour
On Jul 10, 11:15 am, still just me wrote:
What about the squirrel factor? Certainly some TdF rider is concerned about squirrels! http://picasaweb.google.com/dbiked/B...ey=iOs1rM3MJzo That is why they had all those team cars and bikes - all honking horns like crazee - to scare away killer squirrels. |
#33
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Steel frames and le Tour
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:42:13 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: On Jul 10, 1:06*pm, John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:13:12 -0700 (PDT), Scott wrote: I can not bring myself to definitively declare without asking each and every one of them that there are no TdF riders who wouldn't prefer steel. Do you use that standard of certainty in other aspects of life? If you lack that standard of certainty, does whatever happens "not surprise you." Wow, you're not easily surprised. Regardless of your incessant babbling, you know a lot less than you think you do. You're mistaken. I know I know very little. But the things I say I know I'm almost always right about. |
#34
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Steel frames and le Tour
On Jul 10, 1:57*pm, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote: On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:42:13 -0700 (PDT), " Regardless of your incessant babbling, you know a lot less than you think you do. You're mistaken. *I know I know very little. *But the things I say I know I'm almost always right about. As far as you know. R |
#35
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Steel frames and le Tour
On Jul 10, 11:04*am, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote: On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:59:53 -0700 (PDT), Scott wrote: On Jul 10, 9:54*am, John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:39:03 -0700 (PDT), Scott wrote: On a slightly related note, I can tell you that there are plenty of riders using carbon fiber bikes that were NOT made by their sponsor. e.g. *Gerolsteiner's TT bikes aren't not Specialized bikes, but the decals sure read "Specialized". Yeah, it's possible someone's on a steel bike. *I doubt it, but I wouldn't be surprised. Also, just to cement my arrogance, if you *should* be surprised if that was true. Extremely surprised. *There is zero reason any rider in the Tour of France should be a on a steel frame and many reasons (both economic, performance and logistical they should not). You should be shocked. Really, you don't think that even a single rider in the field may actually prefer a steel frame to a carbon fiber frame? *And that rider (should one exist) may be able to get that steel frame for free from the builder? It's been done before many, many times by lots of riders. * What's been done? No reason to definitively conclude that it is not going on now. Let's talk epistomology. *I can't prove a negative here and I won't ask you to prove a positive, since you merely said you "wouldnt' be suprised." *I'll assume wouldnt' be surprised means there's a 1 in 10 or many a 1 in 100 or even a 1 in 1000 chance of it happenning. I'm saying the chance is far, far less than ever the most generous odds above. *Far less than 1 in 1000. *Orders of magnitude less. Now, if something that has a 1 in, say, 10,000 or 1 in a million chance of happening happens, among 200 riders, you wouldn't be surprised? Wow. And here's a surrogate. *Find a single example of a pro tour or continental level pro team using a steel frame in any UCI-level race in Europe. *Try it. *Can you find even one? *- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - JT, Last things first, we're not talking about entire teams using steel frames. We're talking about single riders choosing to use a steel frame. Now, back to your initial paragraph. You don't understand probability. The odds for any given rider using a steel frame is not 1 in 10 or 1 in 100 or whatever. It's 50/50. They either are, or are not, using a steel frame. The odds would be different if we defined our terms differently, say, what are the odds a rider would choose frame A (steel) vs frame B (Ti from builder x) vs frame C (Ti from builder y) vs frame D (carbon fiber from xyz) vs frame E (carbon fiber from abc) and so on. Given my particular love of steel frames, I'm prejudiced, I admit... but given the ease with which a rider who prefers steel (and there are plenty) could substitute a steel frame for his team issued carbon fiber bike at no cost, it wouldn't surprise me if at least one rider did. Do I think it has happened this year? No. Could it happen? Yes. It's pretty damn simple and you don't have to accept it, you can keep arguing (incorrectly) about probability or whatever if you want. Maybe we can get TK to chime in and the two of you can argue till they reaches Paris. |
#36
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Steel frames and le Tour
On Jul 10, 1:04*pm, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote: And here's a surrogate. *Find a single example of a pro tour or continental level pro team using a steel frame in any UCI-level race in Europe. *Try it. *Can you find even one? * I know that I can't find one. It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has. Yesterday bfd replied with Dede Barry's 2002 world cup frame as an example of a steel frame that was used successfully in pro-level competetion. That's nearly 6 years ago though. I would be quite surpised if a steel frame were used by anyone in a Grand Tour. I like and appreciate the ride qualities of a good steel frame but at that level of competetion I would guess that any benefits they provide in terms of "comfort" would be more than negated by those provided by a lighter, stiffer carbon frame. I might be less surprised to find out that someone used a modern steel frame in a race like Paris-Roubaix. |
#37
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Steel frames and le Tour
On Jul 10, 12:21*pm, wrote:
On Jul 10, 1:04*pm, John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: And here's a surrogate. *Find a single example of a pro tour or continental level pro team using a steel frame in any UCI-level race in Europe. *Try it. *Can you find even one? * I know that I can't find one. *It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has. *Yesterday bfd replied with Dede Barry's 2002 world cup frame as an example of a steel frame that was used successfully in pro-level competetion. *That's nearly 6 years ago though. I would be quite surpised if a steel frame were used by anyone in a Grand Tour. *I like and appreciate the ride qualities of a good steel frame but at that level of competetion I would guess that any benefits they provide in terms of "comfort" would be more than negated by those provided by a lighter, stiffer carbon frame. *I might be less surprised to find out that someone used a modern steel frame in a race like Paris-Roubaix. I, too, would be even less surprised to see a steel frame in P-R. Think about this... You talk about the difficulty in finding an example of someone using a steel frame. Well, of course. The whole point of the discussion hinges on the fact that we're talking about someone using a non-standard team frame DISGUISED to look as much like the team issue bike as possible. Unless you're talking about a top pro, where would you ever see info on what bike they're riding? You'd never even hear about some guy on a team who just happened to have a steel bike. That does not mean it is or isn't happening. It just means that it would be hard to point to an example of it if it were happening. |
#38
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Steel frames and le Tour
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:21:06 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote: On Jul 10, 1:57*pm, John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:42:13 -0700 (PDT), " Regardless of your incessant babbling, you know a lot less than you think you do. You're mistaken. *I know I know very little. *But the things I say I know I'm almost always right about. As far as you know. R Dear RJ, Here's a current example of John proving how little he knows: On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 11:25:54 -0600, wrote: "Carl, did you ever add that seven pound weight to your bike? No? Then shut up." http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...83b5702c4c3236 Yes, ignorance is not only bliss, but also tends to believe that it's almost always right. John might profit from this article: http://www.geocities.com/sgraessle/folder1/incomp.htm Cheers, Carl Fogel |
#39
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Steel frames and le Tour
On Jul 10, 11:11*am, Davey Crockett wrote:
John Forrest Tomlinson a écrit profondement: | On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:11:38 -0700 (PDT), Scott| wrote: | | I wouldn't be surprised if someone was riding one in this year's | Tour. | | If you are talking about the Tour de France bike race, you might not | be surprised, but you're still wrong. 2008 Tour Bikes ag2r bh-g4 carbon nanotube agritubel kuota-kom carbon nanotube barloworld bianchi-928 carbon monobloc bouygues *time-vxrs carbon tubular caisse pinarello-prince carbon monobloc cofidis time-vxrs *carbon tubular crédit-ag look-595 carbon tubular euskaltel orbea-orca carbon monobloc f-des-jeux lapierre-x-lite carbon tube to tube geritol specialized-tarmac carbon monobloc high-road giant-tcr *carbon monobloc lampre willier-cento *carbon monobloc leekygas crash-n-fail *carbon tubular quick-step specialized-tarmac carbon monobloc robberbank colnago-extreme * carbon tubular saunier-duval scott-adict * carbon monobloc silence-lotto ridley-helium *carbon monobloc slipstream felt-f1 *carbon monobloc Team-csc cervélo-soloist *carbon monobloc team-milram colnago-extreme *carbon tubular -- Davey Crockett The Buck doesn't stop Here It keeps on Falling at 9.8m/s² Thanks for the info. Not an alloy frame to be found. I assume those are are the "official" bikes of the team. It is still theoretically possible that individual riders have different bikes than these, no? (I will not argue that any of them are steel, however). Fascinating how times have changed. In the days of steel riders had "custom" frames made for them, sometimes by builders of their own choosing. Now, we supposedly have all of these "stock" carbon frames (e.g., Cervelo, Trek) with which riders are perfectly content. |
#40
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Steel frames and le Tour
On Jul 10, 8:49*am, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote: I don't know my car is where I parked it last night, ... If you had a clown car you would. People hate clown cars -- they won't even steal them. |
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