STOP THE FEAR MONGERING

"K. Gringioni" wrote in message
...
On Mar 6, 10:56 am, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:

It should be noted that company managers have been treating engineers
like
absolute crap for a couple of decades or more. Now they're complaining
that
they have to send stuff overseas because there are insufficient American
engineers. And yet American enrolment in engineering programs is falling
and
not growing. Electronics engineers in the USA are out of work 1/3rd of
the
time on the average. Does that sound like a business that someone that's
smart is going to get into?

The problem is the quality of that lower tier of American engineers.
It's not that good, hence their status as unemployed.

I find it interesting that you're more than willing to talk about stuff you
know absolutely nothing about. By all means tell us where you've worked and
what you've done.

When cutting edge companies are complaining about not having enough of
a labor force to choose from they are talking about the top tier.
There really is a shortage.

Do you take your act around to comedy clubs? There really is a shortage
BECAUSE of the way engineers have been treated. Now your pal Obama is
suggesting we do the same thing to Doctors.

Tom Kunich wrote:
"dave a" wrote in message
...
Tom Kunich wrote:

It should be noted that company managers have been treating engineers
like absolute crap for a couple of decades or more.

I would read this as "company managers have been treating Tom Kunich
like absolute crap for a couple of decades or more" Having spent my
career at HP, I can say that at least that company treated engineers
pretty well. While I can't speak for other companies, I would be very
surprised if those at Google or other successful companies are unhappy.

Dave, HP is recognized as one of the exceptions to the rule. However,
the word is that more and more design is being moved overseas. Is that
the case in your experience?

Let me underscore this - I worked at 42 companies in my career and all
but two of them went out of business mostly due to mismanagement. There
are very few engineers that have worked a very long time for a single
company.

We can recognize the exceptions such as HP, Xilinx, Cadence and a few
others. As for Google and Yahoo! - let's wait and see. Usually companies
doing well in their early life treat their employees well. It's when
they start trying to increase profits that problems start.


So, 42 really is the answer!

On Fri, 06 Mar 2009 14:08:25 -0800, dave a
wrote:

Tom Kunich wrote:

It should be noted that company managers have been treating engineers
like absolute crap for a couple of decades or more.

I would read this as "company managers have been treating Tom Kunich
like absolute crap for a couple of decades or more" Having spent my
career at HP, I can say that at least that company treated engineers
pretty well. While I can't speak for other companies, I would be very
surprised if those at Google or other successful companies are unhappy.

My wife's an engineer and seems pretty happy with how her company
treats her. The only problem is the company has been losing money for
years and keeps laying people off. While they have a job, the people
seem happy.

On Mar 6, 3:08*pm, dave a wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
It should be noted that company managers have been treating engineers
like absolute crap for a couple of decades or more.

I would read this as "company managers have been treating Tom Kunich
like absolute crap for a couple of decades or more" *Having spent my
career at HP, I can say that at least that company treated engineers
pretty well. *While I can't speak for other companies, I would be very
surprised if those at Google or other successful companies are unhappy.

- dave a

My wife works at a local startup that was recently bought by HP. Not
everyone likes the change in culture. Nothing against HP, but people
work in startups for a reason.

Bret

Bret wrote:
On Mar 6, 3:08 pm, dave a wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
It should be noted that company managers have been treating engineers
like absolute crap for a couple of decades or more.
I would read this as "company managers have been treating Tom Kunich
like absolute crap for a couple of decades or more" Having spent my
career at HP, I can say that at least that company treated engineers
pretty well. While I can't speak for other companies, I would be very
surprised if those at Google or other successful companies are unhappy.

- dave a

My wife works at a local startup that was recently bought by HP. Not
everyone likes the change in culture. Nothing against HP, but people
work in startups for a reason.

Bret

I know what you mean. HP is certainly no startup and much of the Bill
and Dave culture is long gone. I consider myself fortunate to have been
there when it was run by engineers.

- dave a

On Mar 6, 2:39*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
"K. Gringioni" wrote in message

...





On Mar 6, 10:56 am, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:

It should be noted that company managers have been treating engineers
like
absolute crap for a couple of decades or more. Now they're complaining
that
they have to send stuff overseas because there are insufficient American
engineers. And yet American enrolment in engineering programs is falling
and
not growing. Electronics engineers in the USA are out of work 1/3rd of
the
time on the average. Does that sound like a business that someone that's
smart is going to get into?

The problem is the quality of that lower tier of American engineers.
It's not that good, hence their status as unemployed.

I find it interesting that you're more than willing to talk about stuff you
know absolutely nothing about. By all means tell us where you've worked and
what you've done.



Dumbass -


When I was still programming, 20 years ago, I was employed at La Jolla
Institute (Center for Nonlinear Dynamics), Interactive (Oracle style
companywide database/systems integration), Quivus Systems (fire/police
rapid response street databases) and the Naval Training Center.

My dad was a professor of Civil Engineering at University of Wyoming.
My uncle, Symon Chang, was the founder of Tyan Computer. It was the
world's 2nd largest maker of motherboards behind Intel. They sold it
and now he is the COO of the China operations of Intel. I keep in
touch with a number of friends from college. They're all employed
because they have marketable skills.

Last year Microsoft tried to get us (Soul in the Machine) involved
with their company. They had just formed the Innovations Division/
IdeAgency and one day the General Manager, Randy Granovetter, gave us
a call, made an appointment and showed up with half a dozen people at
our warehouse. The IdeAgency was tasked with the job of trying to get
the company to be more on the forward edge of tech. Basically they
didn't want to get "Googled" again. They flew us up there to be in on
their division launch, had us play a gig there a month later and had
us design and fabricate the physical/mechanical parts of their first
"Living Wall" prototype. Although both sides expressed a desire to
keep working together, we never did form a long lasting relationship.
What we do and what they do is just too different.

Sun Microsystems had us do a Q&A after a General Session w/ 3500+
engineers. Tyco International had us do a Q&A after we played one of
their parties.

Some of the stuff above, like my dad and my uncle's resumes aren't
things that I did, but I listed them because we talk about stuff like
what's going on with the engineering workforce.

I speculate that you can't analyze the situation correctly because you
have obsolete skills, your ego prevents your from ackowledging that
fact and as a result your analysis includes the denial that a
substantial number of American engineers just aren't competitive with
their skills.

You also probably rarely converse with people who are in positions to
see the big picture. Really smart accomplished people don't gravitate
to blowhards like you. They like having intelligent thought provoking
conversation where they might learn something.

Which is why I am a Dumbass. Sometimes I'll do something like post in
response to an idiot such as yourself. Schwartz is right, it's a big
waste of time.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

On Mar 6, 2:08*pm, dave a wrote:

While I can't speak for other companies, ...


lol.

On Mar 6, 2:33*pm, "K. Gringioni" wrote:
On Mar 6, 10:56*am, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:



It should be noted that company managers have been treating engineers like
absolute crap for a couple of decades or more. Now they're complaining that
they have to send stuff overseas because there are insufficient American
engineers. And yet American enrolment in engineering programs is falling and
not growing. Electronics engineers in the USA are out of work 1/3rd of the
time on the average. Does that sound like a business that someone that's
smart is going to get into?

Dumbass -

The problem is the quality of that lower tier of American engineers.
It's not that good, hence their status as unemployed.

When cutting edge companies are complaining about not having enough of
a labor force to choose from they are talking about the top tier.
There really is a shortage.

Dumbass,

On Mar 6, 3:44*pm, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:

The only problem is the company has been losing money for
years and keeps laying people off. *

That doesn't matter if they are too big to fail.

"Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote in
m:

"dave a" wrote in message
...
Tom Kunich wrote:

It should be noted that company managers have been treating
engineers like absolute crap for a couple of decades or more.

I would read this as "company managers have been treating Tom Kunich
like absolute crap for a couple of decades or more" Having spent my
career at HP, I can say that at least that company treated engineers
pretty well. While I can't speak for other companies, I would be very
surprised if those at Google or other successful companies are
unhappy.

Dave, HP is recognized as one of the exceptions to the rule. However,
the word is that more and more design is being moved overseas. Is that
the case in your experience?

Let me underscore this - I worked at 42 companies in my career and all
but two of them went out of business mostly due to mismanagement.
There are very few engineers that have worked a very long time for a
single company.

We can recognize the exceptions such as HP, Xilinx, Cadence and a few
others. As for Google and Yahoo! - let's wait and see. Usually
companies doing well in their early life treat their employees well.
It's when they start trying to increase profits that problems start.

42? Really? Ok, so you entered the AF at 18, spent, what 4 years? Got
out when you were 22. Figure you're 65 now, so 43 years. You changed
jobs every year for 42 years? Even if you're 82 now, and entered the AF
when you were 10, and spent only two years in the service, that would
still be only 1.5 years per company. No wonder you're a bit cynical.

--
Bill Asher