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Police pick on cyclist



 
 
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  #31  
Old December 1st 08, 07:39 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Tom Crispin
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Posts: 4,229
Default Police pick on cyclist

On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:09:40 +0000, Rob Morley
wrote:

If he'd given his name and address rather than acting like a silly
bugger he'd probably have got away with an informal caution.


Acting like a silly bugger can be a help.

In my much younger days I had an interesting encounter with the police
and played a silly bugger...

My front light was faulty - it needed a bang on its side to get it
working. At about 2am I was at a set of red lights very close to my
home with a police car behind me. There was no other traffic and I
went straight over. The police car followed, it flashed and put on
its blue lights, I ignored it and turned into my service road and to
my front door. The police parked up and confronted me.

They challenged my lack of a front light, and I showed them that it
worked. They challenged that I went through the red lights, I claimed
they were green. The challenged that I did not stop, I claimed I did
not know they wanted me to stop as I couldn't see behind me. There
was a bit of other stuff that I can't recall. They asked for my name
and address, I gave them my name and said (in a silly bugger way), "My
address is here".

Some nine months later I received a threat of bailiffs if I didn't pay
the fine (I can't recall the amount) for shooting lights, no lights at
night and failing to comply with a request to stop. I didn't even
know I'd been taken to court.

Because I had played silly buggers the police copied down my neigbours
address, not mine, and I never received the summons (at that time a
pair of prostitutes were living in the flat above mine and they had
never passed on the court summons). Because I never had the chance to
defend myself the conviction and fine were quashed.

Perhaps I'm a lucky bugger, not just a silly bugger. ;-)



**Troll bait** - I will welcome some relevant and pertinent
statistical blurb from judith demonstrating that he has a clear
understanding of statistics. I, and others, will read his post with
careful scrutiny, and be so awed that we shall not respond.
Ads
  #32  
Old December 1st 08, 08:01 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Adam Lea[_2_]
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Posts: 783
Default Police pick on cyclist


"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 05:49:56 -0800 (PST) someone who may be calum
wrote this:-
"Officers told the 30-year-old they had spotted him cycling along the
busy Tollcross Street without any lights on..."


Read on to the next bit after the three dots, "But Mr Cimini
challenged this, claiming he had left his flat with both lights
working".


It is possible that the rear light could have failed en-route without him
noticing. This has happened to me a couple of times.


  #33  
Old December 1st 08, 08:33 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_5_]
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Default Police pick on cyclist

David Hansen wrote:

I see that the police have picked on another cyclist in Edinburgh
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Cyclist-fined-after-three-hours.4747444.jp.


If the report is true then the cyclist had working lights on his
bike, though they may have been dim. Thus he was not committing an
offence and the police had no grounds to ask him for his name and
address. Thus the arrest was illegal, just like the fixed penalty
notice.


If "picked on" means "enforced the law"... yes.

He was under an obligation to give his name and address - if requested -
under road traffic legislation.

Subject to the weird and wonderful separate-but-effectively-the-same-as-here
legal system in Scotland, he didn't give his name and address when lawfully
required to, the police would have been within their rights to arrest him
(which oddly enough, seems to have been their view too). If it were
otherwise, how could cycling law ever be enforced?

But no doubt you will be representing him at his appeal.



  #34  
Old December 1st 08, 08:35 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_5_]
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Posts: 3,985
Default Police pick on cyclist

Daniel Barlow wrote:

David Hansen writes:


If the report is true then the cyclist had working lights on his
bike, though they may have been dim.


There is presumably some threshold of dimness below which a light
becomes illegal.


Switched off - which is certainly a possibility and would be just as
concordant with the reported facts - would certainly count as that.

Or perhaps there isn't - lighting regulations for
bikes have historically been a bit daft (c.f. illegal LEDs until a few
years ago) and it would not surprise me too much to learn that it's
technically ok to cycle around with dead light batteries.


It is.

But not at night. :-)
  #35  
Old December 1st 08, 08:38 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_5_]
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Posts: 3,985
Default Police pick on cyclist

David Hansen wrote:
On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 05:49:56 -0800 (PST) someone who may be calum
wrote this:-

The report states he was stopped for not showing *any* lights,


The report reports the claims of the police. That does not prove
that he was not showing *any* lights. It may be that the police
simply failed to spot the lights amongst the general array of lights
on the road, it may be that the police were unable to see them as
the police were not in the right position (for example looking from
the side), it may be that their view was obstructed by something, it
may be that the police are lying, it may be that the report is
wrong. All sorts of possibilities


....including the possibility that the police were right and that he was
showing no lights, something he accepted by wisely opting for a FPN instead
of a court appearance.

and arrested for subsequently refusing to provide his name.


The police have only limited grounds to request such information. If
the lights were working then they had no grounds to request the
information, unless one imagines that the lights suddenly started
working. Although a light which has been switched off for a while
may be brighter when switched back on I doubt if an exhausted light
would make a comeback.


"Officers told the 30-year-old they had spotted him cycling along the
busy Tollcross Street without any lights on..."


Read on to the next bit after the three dots, "But Mr Cimini
challenged this, claiming he had left his flat with both lights
working".


Is that the same as "switched on", then?

The lights on my car are all working (I can see it from here). But they're
not switched on.

He accepted a fixed penalty notice and therefore accepted his guilt.


The police had already used threatening words and behaviour. No
doubt this continued and the victim gave in. Many victims do.


You ought to get down to London and speak up for Damian Green.

Or perhaps not.
  #36  
Old December 1st 08, 08:41 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_5_]
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Posts: 3,985
Default Police pick on cyclist

David Hansen wrote:
On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 14:48:16 +0000 someone who may be Roger Thorpe
wrote this:-

And like many a person who thinks themself law-abiding, the middle class
offender is shocked to be treated like a criminal or even "a vagrant".


In this case it is not in the least clear whether the person was an
offender or not.


Yes it is.

He accepted that by taking the FP.

If the person was not an offender then the subsequent police actions
were illegal and the only offenders were the police officers
themselves.


All meaningless - the offender admitted the offence.
  #37  
Old December 1st 08, 08:43 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_5_]
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Default Police pick on cyclist

Light of Aria wrote:

"pk" wrote:
"David Hansen" wrote:


http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Cyclist-fined-after-three-hours.4747444.jp.


Rough translation:
"the cyclist got lippy and tried to be clever by shining the "light"
in the officer's face" so they nicked him.
pk


That sounds like what may have happened. If you show Police disrespect
they will go to town on you.


Being a sociology lecturer he's the sort of person who might be a bit
bolshie.


Not necessarily.

I used to know several sociology lecturers - one or two of them (OK, maybe
three) were as you describe, buut at least as many were ordinary,
semi-detached, suburban, pipe-and-slippers, Audi or Volvo-driving men.
  #38  
Old December 1st 08, 08:46 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_5_]
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Posts: 3,985
Default Police pick on cyclist

David Hansen wrote:
On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 07:12:53 -0800 (PST) someone who may be calum
wrote this:-

The report reports the claims of the police. That does not prove
that he was not showing *any* lights.

The report reports the claims of both sides.


I didn't claim otherwise.

But most likely, given his acceptance of a fixed penalty, that he
failed to display lights at night.


You think? Personally I think that it is the threatening words and
behaviour.

The police had already used threatening words and behaviour.

Where in the report did you read that?


The police undoubtedly used threatening words in their attempts to
make their victim provide information he did not have to provide.
The threatening words undoubtedly involved threats of arrest at the
roadside. The threatening behaviour included assaulting the victim
by placing him in handcuffs, taking him to a police station and
putting him in a cell. There were undoubtedly threatening words
during and after this too.


I've often wondered what you might do for a living.

I can see clearly now that you are an Edinburgh police officer.
  #39  
Old December 1st 08, 08:46 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_5_]
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Posts: 3,985
Default Police pick on cyclist

David Hansen wrote:
On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 14:52:33 +0000 someone who may be Martin
wrote this:-

I do think that as Mr Cimini was making had some lights on his bike, he
should have just been given a ticking off, but then shinning it in the
cops face would not help his cause.


A police officer once shone a torch in my eyes, refused to point it
at the ground when I pointed out that it is impolite to shine lights
in people's faces and became lippy when I held my hand infront of my
face to stop myself being blinded by the torch.


You have a lot of run-ins with the police, don't you?
  #40  
Old December 1st 08, 08:49 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_5_]
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Posts: 3,985
Default Police pick on cyclist

Tom Crispin wrote:
On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:09:40 +0000, Rob Morley
wrote:

If he'd given his name and address rather than acting like a silly
bugger he'd probably have got away with an informal caution.


Acting like a silly bugger can be a help.

In my much younger days I had an interesting encounter with the police
and played a silly bugger...

My front light was faulty - it needed a bang on its side to get it
working. At about 2am I was at a set of red lights very close to my
home with a police car behind me. There was no other traffic and I
went straight over. The police car followed, it flashed and put on
its blue lights, I ignored it and turned into my service road and to
my front door. The police parked up and confronted me.

They challenged my lack of a front light, and I showed them that it
worked. They challenged that I went through the red lights, I claimed
they were green. The challenged that I did not stop, I claimed I did
not know they wanted me to stop as I couldn't see behind me. There
was a bit of other stuff that I can't recall. They asked for my name
and address, I gave them my name and said (in a silly bugger way), "My
address is here".


Is lying as blatantly as that something you are proud of?
 




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