Jef D'Hont

On 26 Mar 2007 17:33:40 GMT, "Jonathan v.d. Sluis"
wrote:

Jason Spaceman wrote in
:

What channel was this on? Is this program available online somewhere?


http://www.canvas.be/canvas_master/p...rama_dezeweek/
index.shtml

There's a small play button next to the photograph.


Thanks.








J. Spaceman

"Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote in
ink.net:

"benjo maso" wrote in message
...

Tom, the point is that the hematocrit level is usually dropping a few
percent during a gruelling race like the Giro or the Tour. By
contrast Basso's level increased a little (from 42,7 to 43.1 if I'm
not mistaken). As Jonathan said, this seems to be typical of
microdosing EPO.

This doesn't seem correct to me Benjo. EPO is a hugely effective
hormone. The human body produces that stuff in microscopic quantities
and even "microdosing" is considerably higher amounts than the body
produces.

And as for that change you noted - anyone that believes that they can
measure hematocrit closer than 2% accurately is dreaming. And even
that has a great deal to do with hydration more than anything else.



I'm just constantly thinking about Pantani in 1999. His hematocrit was,
as I recall, 52? So without dreaming, that could represent any value
between 50 and 54, making a legal value a distinct possibility.

Second, I also remember reading on this board that Pantani surely used
EPO because his hematocrit would raise during the three weeks of the
giro. What was the lower value? I don't know, but it would have to be
measured below 48 to be sure that we aren't dreaming while Pantani's
hematocrit actually floated around 50.

But that wasn't all: the expectancy was that Pantani's hematocrit should
have dropped, not raised, and not stayed the same. To me, that makes
Basso's values suspect, because they seem more or less the same (again
while desperately avoiding any dreams). That would be following the logic
I read here earlier.

I've often seen it before, if you start applying modern excuse methods to
sure dopers of the past you might come to surprising conclusions. Perhaps
Pantani was innocent. Or perhaps Basso's values are suspect. In the end,
the goal doesn't seem to be to ascertain the truth about who used EPO and
who didn't but rather to protect or damage certain riders. This
invalidates most opinions about doping, since it clearly influences what
I read here and elsewhere about Landis, Armstrong, Basso or anyone else.

On Mar 27, 7:10 am, "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" wrote:


Second, I also remember reading on this board that Pantani surely used
EPO because his hematocrit would raise during the three weeks of the
giro. What was the lower value? I don't know, but it would have to be
measured below 48 to be sure that we aren't dreaming while Pantani's
hematocrit actually floated around 50.

dumbass,

you're forgetting two things.

i) a margin of error is built into the system

ii) pantani didn't test positive, he was only given a 2 week "health
leave", though this did have the effect of derailing his career.

the hct test should be scrapped since it is a vestige from the time
before an EPO test existed and there is confusion if a "failed" test
should be treated as a doping case or not.

" wrote in
oups.com:

On Mar 27, 7:10 am, "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" wrote:


Second, I also remember reading on this board that Pantani surely used
EPO because his hematocrit would raise during the three weeks of the
giro. What was the lower value? I don't know, but it would have to be
measured below 48 to be sure that we aren't dreaming while Pantani's
hematocrit actually floated around 50.

dumbass,

you're forgetting two things.

i) a margin of error is built into the system

ii) pantani didn't test positive, he was only given a 2 week "health
leave", though this did have the effect of derailing his career.

the hct test should be scrapped since it is a vestige from the time
before an EPO test existed and there is confusion if a "failed" test
should be treated as a doping case or not.




You mean Pantani didn't use EPO?

Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:

I also thought the announcement that Basso rode a Giro while keeping
his hematocrit at a constant level was rather remarkable. The program
implied this is typical of microdosing EPO.

He was microdosing EPO with stored Operation Puerto blood bags?

On Mar 27, 9:58 am, "Robert Chung" wrote:
Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
I also thought the announcement that Basso rode a Giro while keeping
his hematocrit at a constant level was rather remarkable. The program
implied this is typical of microdosing EPO.

He was microdosing EPO with stored Operation Puerto blood bags?


dumbass,

i like the theory that floyd's T:E ratio came about from blood bags
which had been filled before the allowable T:E ratio had been lowered.

On Mar 27, 8:59 am, "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" wrote:
" wrote groups.com:



On Mar 27, 7:10 am, "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" wrote:

Second, I also remember reading on this board that Pantani surely used
EPO because his hematocrit would raise during the three weeks of the
giro. What was the lower value? I don't know, but it would have to be
measured below 48 to be sure that we aren't dreaming while Pantani's
hematocrit actually floated around 50.

dumbass,

you're forgetting two things.

i) a margin of error is built into the system

ii) pantani didn't test positive, he was only given a 2 week "health
leave", though this did have the effect of derailing his career.

the hct test should be scrapped since it is a vestige from the time
before an EPO test existed and there is confusion if a "failed" test
should be treated as a doping case or not.

You mean Pantani didn't use EPO?


dumbass,

you said pantani might be "innocent", but that implies he was guilty.
he was never found guilty of doping.

if he had been mentally tougher he could've sat out two weeks and
returned to race the tour and possibly beat armstrong.

"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" wrote in message
...
"Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote in
ink.net:

"benjo maso" wrote in message
...

Tom, the point is that the hematocrit level is usually dropping a few
percent during a gruelling race like the Giro or the Tour. By
contrast Basso's level increased a little (from 42,7 to 43.1 if I'm
not mistaken). As Jonathan said, this seems to be typical of
microdosing EPO.

This doesn't seem correct to me Benjo. EPO is a hugely effective
hormone. The human body produces that stuff in microscopic quantities
and even "microdosing" is considerably higher amounts than the body
produces.

And as for that change you noted - anyone that believes that they can
measure hematocrit closer than 2% accurately is dreaming. And even
that has a great deal to do with hydration more than anything else.

In the end,
the goal doesn't seem to be to ascertain the truth about who used EPO and
who didn't but rather to protect or damage certain riders. This
invalidates most opinions about doping, since it clearly influences what
I read here and elsewhere about Landis, Armstrong, Basso or anyone else.

I think you're creeping up on the truth Jon. All of the screaming and second
hand guessing is almost always done from a position of ignorance of the
tests themselves.

All of the usual methods of measuring hematocrit are more than accurate
enough for a medical diagnosis. But they aren't accurate enough to use as a
hair trigger guilt/non-guilt verdict.

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 27, 7:10 am, "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" wrote:


Second, I also remember reading on this board that Pantani surely used
EPO because his hematocrit would raise during the three weeks of the
giro. What was the lower value? I don't know, but it would have to be
measured below 48 to be sure that we aren't dreaming while Pantani's
hematocrit actually floated around 50.

dumbass,

you're forgetting two things.

i) a margin of error is built into the system

ii) pantani didn't test positive, he was only given a 2 week "health
leave", though this did have the effect of derailing his career.

the hct test should be scrapped since it is a vestige from the time
before an EPO test existed and there is confusion if a "failed" test
should be treated as a doping case or not.

Wrong. As we've seen the blood doping tests are NOT reliable despite the
iron clad guarantee of Dr. Pound. And microdosing of EPO cannot be detected
if done properly. By far the best method is to simply set the limit at 50%
with some exceptions up to 54% with the SAME penalty of two weeks off if you
go over the limit. If it's understood that going over that limit CAN be
perfectly normal or a error in measurement it isn't career threatening
unless it happens very often.

wrote in message
oups.com...

if he (Pantani) had been mentally tougher he could've sat out two weeks
and
returned to race the tour and possibly beat armstrong.

And therein lies the rub. We lost Pantani not because of drugs or accidents
but because he wasn't mentally strong enough to stand the see-saw between
public hero and public zero and then back again. It was public adoration
followed by public condemnation and back that really killed him.