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#21
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Beware of Lone Peak Packs Non-Warranty
"Andre Jute" wrote in message
... Are you familiar with the work of John Rawls? At the most basic, Rawls posits two parties and a cake behind a curtain. One party goes behind the curtain and may cut the cake any way he pleases. The other party then goes behind the curtain and chooses his cut of the cake, so that the cutter must take what is left. Clearly The Veil of Ignorance (the title of Rawls's groundbreaking book, IIRC) is an incentive to a fair division of the cake. That works without a curtain though - "one cuts, the other chooses" is standard for divvying stuff up from the playground onwards. |
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#22
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Another Lifetime Non-Warranty
"Bill Sornson" wrote in message
... Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: Most better shops try to deal only with companies that take care of things that shouldn't have happened. That's one of the reasons we don't deal with a major company known for wheels, because their idea of "customer service" when something goes wrong is abysmal. Starts with 'E' and ends with 'aston'? (Or is it 'M' and 'avic'? Horror story there, too.) Bill "spent $170 repairing $450 rear wheel with maybe 8,000 miles on it" S. Bill: A major issue is that nobody knows how long a wheel is supposed to last anymore. Seriously. Sounds ridiculous, I know, but we've absolutely positively traded off durability for good looks, aerodynamics and sometimes (but not always) better performance. And the lifespan is tough to describe in miles, because the exact same wheel gets dramatically different results (in terms of lifespan) from different users. Bontrager finally got around the mess by offering a ridiculous 5-year warranty (crazy to do so on a wheel product), and in the long run that has helped with durability because the people designing something with a longer warranty are going to try and minimize warranty costs. But it's still a trade-off. You can't even get around it completely with custom hand-built wheels, what with all the rims that develop cracks at the nipple/rim interface, although using more spokes helps. I did find one solution, but I don't think it's going to help most cyclists, at least not those who haven't won the lottery. I'm running Bontrager Race XXX-lite clinchers, and presently have something like 18-20k miles on them, and have literally not touched them with a spoke wrench. Carbon clincher rims don't build up a moderately-priced bike though. Last time I got mileage like that on a low-spoke-count wheel was... well maybe the really heavy original Rolf wheels (the ones you could dent a street curb with, the rim was so massive). --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com |
#23
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Beware of Lone Peak Packs Non-Warranty
"Still Just Me" wrote in message
... On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:28:08 -0800, "Leo Lichtman" wrote: A company can spend huge amounts on advertising without knowing whether it is paying off. If they would learn to think of warranty payouts as advertising they would get more bang for the buck by than spending money on artwork and publishing. Part of the long term lessons of TQM that few American companies seem to understand, even 50 years after it's adoption by the Japanese. Of course, I do have to note that Japanese Auto Manufacturers, a shining example of TQM, have adopted American styles of "warranty management" over the last few years. I think more accurately you could say that car warranties are moving to the center, with American car warranties now considerably better than they used to be (as are the cars themselves), while the imports may not be quite as lenient (on warranties) as they used to be. But overall, I think we've got better cars (and accountability) on the road today than we did 30 years ago. And this isn't coming from a car person. --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com |
#24
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Beware of Lone Peak Packs Non-Warranty
On Dec 5, 5:28*pm, "Leo Lichtman" wrote:
A company can spend huge amounts on advertising without knowing whether it is paying off. *If they would learn to think of warranty payouts as advertising they would get more bang for the buck by than spending money on artwork and publishing. One of the most powerful forces on earth, word of mouth. -- Andre Jute |
#25
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Beware of Lone Peak Packs Non-Warranty
Andre Jute wrote:
Are you familiar with the work of John Rawls? At the most basic, Rawls posits two parties and a cake behind a curtain. One party goes behind the curtain and may cut the cake any way he pleases. The other party then goes behind the curtain and chooses his cut of the cake, so that the cutter must take what is left. Clearly The Veil of Ignorance (the title of Rawls's groundbreaking book, IIRC) is an incentive to a fair division of the cake. In this case Scarfie has pulled aside the veil of ignorance behind which Lone Peak would have preferred to work; and Lone Peak screwed themselves by not considering whether the guy on the other side of the curtain could or would retaliate. ok. I'm one day out of surgery on both my left knee and right hand. Maybe it's that or something else but you have utterly lost me here. I haven't got any idea what cakes or cutting or what the curtain does here or how it relates to customer service. lose the curtain, the cutter cuts in half in plain sight or hidden & they both get .5 cakes. I'm gonna lay down for a while & rest. -paul |
#26
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Beware of Lone Peak Packs Non-Warranty
On Dec 5, 7:34*pm, slide wrote:
Andre Jute wrote: Are you familiar with the work of John Rawls? At the most basic, Rawls posits two parties and a cake behind a curtain. One party goes behind the curtain and may cut the cake any way he pleases. The other party then goes behind the curtain and chooses his cut of the cake, so that the cutter must take what is left. Clearly The Veil of Ignorance (the title of Rawls's groundbreaking book, IIRC) is an incentive to a fair division of the cake. In this case Scarfie has pulled aside the veil of ignorance behind which Lone Peak would have preferred to work; and Lone Peak screwed themselves by not considering whether the guy on the other side of the curtain could or would retaliate. ok. I'm one day out of surgery on both my left knee and right hand. Maybe it's that or something else but you have utterly lost me here. I haven't got any idea what cakes or cutting or what the curtain does here or how it relates to customer service. lose the curtain, the cutter cuts in half in plain sight or hidden & they both get .5 cakes. I'm gonna lay down for a while & rest. -paul At least your sense of humour is intact. -- Andre Jute |
#27
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Another Lifetime Non-Warranty
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
"Bill Sornson" wrote in message ... Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: Most better shops try to deal only with companies that take care of things that shouldn't have happened. That's one of the reasons we don't deal with a major company known for wheels, because their idea of "customer service" when something goes wrong is abysmal. Starts with 'E' and ends with 'aston'? (Or is it 'M' and 'avic'? Horror story there, too.) Bill "spent $170 repairing $450 rear wheel with maybe 8,000 miles on it" S. Bill: A major issue is that nobody knows how long a wheel is supposed to last anymore. Seriously. Sounds ridiculous, I know, but we've absolutely positively traded off durability for good looks, aerodynamics and sometimes (but not always) better performance. And the lifespan is tough to describe in miles, because the exact same wheel gets dramatically different results (in terms of lifespan) from different users. Bontrager finally got around the mess by offering a ridiculous 5-year warranty (crazy to do so on a wheel product), and in the long run that has helped with durability because the people designing something with a longer warranty are going to try and minimize warranty costs. But it's still a trade-off. You can't even get around it completely with custom hand-built wheels, what with all the rims that develop cracks at the nipple/rim interface, although using more spokes helps. I did find one solution, but I don't think it's going to help most cyclists, at least not those who haven't won the lottery. I'm running Bontrager Race XXX-lite clinchers, and presently have something like 18-20k miles on them, and have literally not touched them with a spoke wrench. Carbon clincher rims don't build up a moderately-priced bike though. Last time I got mileage like that on a low-spoke-count wheel was... well maybe the really heavy original Rolf wheels (the ones you could dent a street curb with, the rim was so massive). Nice dodge on naming the brand name, Mike! The Bonty X-lites that came on my Klein have every bit of 30,000 miles on 'em, and I haven't touched a thing, either. (In fact, my lazy maintenance routine has resulted in severely corroded spoke nipples -- basically flaking off pieces -- and the Trek guy offered to see if they were warrantable. Missed it by less than a year, but appreciated the gesture as it never occurred to me they'd be covered after so long, time and disctance.) Still, the wheels are true and turn smoothly; may just invest in new nipples all around and keep 'em another 20-30K! My hi-zoot Velomaxes (now Easton) were also trouble-free for close to 10K I'd say (8K more likely), but then a spoke pulled (ripped) out of the rim. Still, replacement would have only cost $100 or so, but I got the "dry" (from day one) hub serviced for an extra $65 and indeed it's much smoother and quieter now. No more babying 'em; they're my daily wheels now. (Bonties still on the Klein, but I only ride that about 30 miles a week or so.) Then there are my Crossmax XL mtb wheels. Worst bike-related purchase ever. (Screaming/vibrating rear hub sends a tingle up my leg to rival Chris Matthews'.) Bill "live and...learn?" S. |
#28
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Beware of Lone Peak Packs Non-Warranty
But back to the thread: this has cost the American car companies in
the past, and is starting to cost the Japanese - although they often win as the lesser of two weevils. Well yeah, it's not as if we have any other choices anymore, now that Yugo's gone. :) --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA "Still Just Me" wrote in message ... On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:58:10 -0800, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote: I think more accurately you could say that car warranties are moving to the center, with American car warranties now considerably better than they used to be (as are the cars themselves), while the imports may not be quite as lenient (on warranties) as they used to be. But overall, I think we've got better cars (and accountability) on the road today than we did 30 years ago. And this isn't coming from a car person. Maybe in general. American car quality has definitely risen, but it still sucks - at least based on the feedback from my friends who currently drive American cars (dedicated buyers even) who are going foreign next time. Personally, I would touch one unless it was half price (to cover the extra cost and aggravation). The Japanese companies have become positively unfriendly, routinely ignoring major problems until a lawsuit forces coverage simply to protect the bottom line - despite obvious evidence that they are directly responsible for the problems. But back to the thread: this has cost the American car companies in the past, and is starting to cost the Japanese - although they often win as the lesser of two weevils. |
#29
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Another Lifetime Non-Warranty
"Bill Sornson" wrote: A major issue is that nobody knows how long a wheel is supposed to last anymore. I'm running Bontrager Race XXX-lite clinchers, and presently have something like 18-20k miles on them, and have literally not touched them with a spoke wrench. .... and... The Bonty X-lites that came on my Klein have every bit of 30,000 miles on 'em, and I haven't touched a thing, either. Are these the same wheels? Which is it: "18-20k" or "every bit of 30,000" miles. Still, the wheels are true and turn smoothly; may just invest in new nipples all around and keep 'em another 20-30K! My hi-zoot Velomaxes (now Easton) were also trouble-free for close to 10K I'd say (8K more likely), but then a spoke pulled (ripped) out of the rim. Still, replacement would have only cost $100 or so, but I got the "dry" (from day one) hub serviced for an extra $65 and indeed it's much smoother and quieter now. Did I read that right? You rode 8-10,000 miles on a wheel with no grease in the bearings? Then you "spent $170 repairing $450 rear wheel with maybe 8,000 miles on it"? Servicing a hub after 8,000 miles is not "repair". No more babying 'em; they're my daily wheels now. (Bonties still on the Klein, but I only ride that about 30 miles a week or so.) At "30 miles a week or so" it will take 13-20 years to "keep 'em another 20-30K" |
#30
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Beware of Lone Peak Packs Non-Warranty
On Dec 5, 2:34*pm, slide wrote:
ok. I'm one day out of surgery on both my left knee and right hand. Ah, another Charleston accident! When will you jitterbuggers learn? |
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