Beware of Lone Peak Packs Non-Warranty

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...

Are you familiar with the work of John Rawls? At the most basic, Rawls
posits two parties and a cake behind a curtain. One party goes behind
the curtain and may cut the cake any way he pleases. The other party
then goes behind the curtain and chooses his cut of the cake, so that
the cutter must take what is left. Clearly The Veil of Ignorance (the
title of Rawls's groundbreaking book, IIRC) is an incentive to a fair
division of the cake.

That works without a curtain though - "one cuts, the other chooses" is
standard for divvying stuff up from the playground onwards.

"Bill Sornson" wrote in message
...
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

Most better shops try to deal only with companies that take care of
things that shouldn't have happened. That's one of the reasons we
don't deal with a major company known for wheels, because their idea
of "customer service" when something goes wrong is abysmal.

Starts with 'E' and ends with 'aston'? (Or is it 'M' and 'avic'?
Horror story there, too.)

Bill "spent $170 repairing $450 rear wheel with maybe 8,000 miles on
it" S.

Bill: A major issue is that nobody knows how long a wheel is supposed to
last anymore. Seriously. Sounds ridiculous, I know, but we've absolutely
positively traded off durability for good looks, aerodynamics and
sometimes (but not always) better performance. And the lifespan is tough
to describe in miles, because the exact same wheel gets dramatically
different results (in terms of lifespan) from different users. Bontrager
finally got around the mess by offering a ridiculous 5-year warranty
(crazy to do so on a wheel product), and in the long run that has helped
with durability because the people designing something with a longer
warranty are going to try and minimize warranty costs. But it's still a
trade-off. You can't even get around it completely with custom
hand-built wheels, what with all the rims that develop cracks at the
nipple/rim interface, although using more spokes helps.

I did find one solution, but I don't think it's going to help most
cyclists, at least not those who haven't won the lottery. I'm running
Bontrager Race XXX-lite clinchers, and presently have something like
18-20k miles on them, and have literally not touched them with a spoke
wrench. Carbon clincher rims don't build up a moderately-priced bike
though. Last time I got mileage like that on a low-spoke-count wheel
was... well maybe the really heavy original Rolf wheels (the ones you
could dent a street curb with, the rim was so massive).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Still Just Me" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:28:08 -0800, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:

A company can spend huge amounts on advertising without knowing
whether it
is paying off. If they would learn to think of warranty payouts as
advertising they would get more bang for the buck by than spending
money on
artwork and publishing.


Part of the long term lessons of TQM that few American companies seem
to understand, even 50 years after it's adoption by the Japanese.

Of course, I do have to note that Japanese Auto Manufacturers, a
shining example of TQM, have adopted American styles of "warranty
management" over the last few years.

I think more accurately you could say that car warranties are moving to
the center, with American car warranties now considerably better than
they used to be (as are the cars themselves), while the imports may not
be quite as lenient (on warranties) as they used to be. But overall, I
think we've got better cars (and accountability) on the road today than
we did 30 years ago. And this isn't coming from a car person.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

On Dec 5, 5:28*pm, "Leo Lichtman" wrote:
A company can spend huge amounts on advertising without knowing whether it
is paying off. *If they would learn to think of warranty payouts as
advertising they would get more bang for the buck by than spending money on
artwork and publishing.

One of the most powerful forces on earth, word of mouth. -- Andre Jute

Andre Jute wrote:


Are you familiar with the work of John Rawls? At the most basic, Rawls
posits two parties and a cake behind a curtain. One party goes behind
the curtain and may cut the cake any way he pleases. The other party
then goes behind the curtain and chooses his cut of the cake, so that
the cutter must take what is left. Clearly The Veil of Ignorance (the
title of Rawls's groundbreaking book, IIRC) is an incentive to a fair
division of the cake. In this case Scarfie has pulled aside the veil
of ignorance behind which Lone Peak would have preferred to work; and
Lone Peak screwed themselves by not considering whether the guy on the
other side of the curtain could or would retaliate.


ok. I'm one day out of surgery on both my left knee and right hand.
Maybe it's that or something else but you have utterly lost me here. I
haven't got any idea what cakes or cutting or what the curtain does here
or how it relates to customer service. lose the curtain, the cutter cuts
in half in plain sight or hidden & they both get .5 cakes.

I'm gonna lay down for a while & rest.

-paul

On Dec 5, 7:34*pm, slide wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

Are you familiar with the work of John Rawls? At the most basic, Rawls
posits two parties and a cake behind a curtain. One party goes behind
the curtain and may cut the cake any way he pleases. The other party
then goes behind the curtain and chooses his cut of the cake, so that
the cutter must take what is left. Clearly The Veil of Ignorance (the
title of Rawls's groundbreaking book, IIRC) is an incentive to a fair
division of the cake. In this case Scarfie has pulled aside the veil
of ignorance behind which Lone Peak would have preferred to work; and
Lone Peak screwed themselves by not considering whether the guy on the
other side of the curtain could or would retaliate.

ok. I'm one day out of surgery on both my left knee and right hand.
Maybe it's that or something else but you have utterly lost me here. I
haven't got any idea what cakes or cutting or what the curtain does here
or how it relates to customer service. lose the curtain, the cutter cuts
in half in plain sight or hidden & they both get .5 cakes.

I'm gonna lay down for a while & rest.

-paul

At least your sense of humour is intact. -- Andre Jute

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
"Bill Sornson" wrote in message
...
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

Most better shops try to deal only with companies that take care of
things that shouldn't have happened. That's one of the reasons we
don't deal with a major company known for wheels, because their idea
of "customer service" when something goes wrong is abysmal.

Starts with 'E' and ends with 'aston'? (Or is it 'M' and 'avic'?
Horror story there, too.)

Bill "spent $170 repairing $450 rear wheel with maybe 8,000 miles on
it" S.

Bill: A major issue is that nobody knows how long a wheel is supposed
to last anymore. Seriously. Sounds ridiculous, I know, but we've
absolutely positively traded off durability for good looks,
aerodynamics and sometimes (but not always) better performance. And
the lifespan is tough to describe in miles, because the exact same
wheel gets dramatically different results (in terms of lifespan) from
different users. Bontrager finally got around the mess by offering a
ridiculous 5-year warranty (crazy to do so on a wheel product), and
in the long run that has helped with durability because the people
designing something with a longer warranty are going to try and
minimize warranty costs. But it's still a trade-off. You can't even
get around it completely with custom hand-built wheels, what with all
the rims that develop cracks at the nipple/rim interface, although
using more spokes helps.
I did find one solution, but I don't think it's going to help most
cyclists, at least not those who haven't won the lottery. I'm running
Bontrager Race XXX-lite clinchers, and presently have something like
18-20k miles on them, and have literally not touched them with a spoke
wrench. Carbon clincher rims don't build up a moderately-priced bike
though. Last time I got mileage like that on a low-spoke-count wheel
was... well maybe the really heavy original Rolf wheels (the ones you
could dent a street curb with, the rim was so massive).

Nice dodge on naming the brand name, Mike!

The Bonty X-lites that came on my Klein have every bit of 30,000 miles on
'em, and I haven't touched a thing, either. (In fact, my lazy maintenance
routine has resulted in severely corroded spoke nipples -- basically flaking
off pieces -- and the Trek guy offered to see if they were warrantable.
Missed it by less than a year, but appreciated the gesture as it never
occurred to me they'd be covered after so long, time and disctance.) Still,
the wheels are true and turn smoothly; may just invest in new nipples all
around and keep 'em another 20-30K!

My hi-zoot Velomaxes (now Easton) were also trouble-free for close to 10K
I'd say (8K more likely), but then a spoke pulled (ripped) out of the rim.
Still, replacement would have only cost $100 or so, but I got the "dry"
(from day one) hub serviced for an extra $65 and indeed it's much smoother
and quieter now. No more babying 'em; they're my daily wheels now.
(Bonties still on the Klein, but I only ride that about 30 miles a week or
so.)

Then there are my Crossmax XL mtb wheels. Worst bike-related purchase ever.
(Screaming/vibrating rear hub sends a tingle up my leg to rival Chris
Matthews'.)

Bill "live and...learn?" S.

But back to the thread: this has cost the American car companies in
the past, and is starting to cost the Japanese - although they often
win as the lesser of two weevils.

Well yeah, it's not as if we have any other choices anymore, now that
Yugo's gone. :)

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Still Just Me" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:58:10 -0800, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:

I think more accurately you could say that car warranties are moving
to
the center, with American car warranties now considerably better than
they used to be (as are the cars themselves), while the imports may
not
be quite as lenient (on warranties) as they used to be. But overall, I
think we've got better cars (and accountability) on the road today
than
we did 30 years ago. And this isn't coming from a car person.

Maybe in general. American car quality has definitely risen, but it
still sucks - at least based on the feedback from my friends who
currently drive American cars (dedicated buyers even) who are going
foreign next time. Personally, I would touch one unless it was half
price (to cover the extra cost and aggravation).

The Japanese companies have become positively unfriendly, routinely
ignoring major problems until a lawsuit forces coverage simply to
protect the bottom line - despite obvious evidence that they are
directly responsible for the problems.

But back to the thread: this has cost the American car companies in
the past, and is starting to cost the Japanese - although they often
win as the lesser of two weevils.

"Bill Sornson" wrote:

A major issue is that nobody knows how long a wheel is supposed
to last anymore.

I'm running
Bontrager Race XXX-lite clinchers, and presently have something like
18-20k miles on them, and have literally not touched them with a spoke
wrench.


.... and...


The Bonty X-lites that came on my Klein have every bit of 30,000 miles on
'em, and I haven't touched a thing, either.

Are these the same wheels? Which is it: "18-20k" or "every bit of
30,000" miles.

Still,
the wheels are true and turn smoothly; may just invest in new nipples all
around and keep 'em another 20-30K!

My hi-zoot Velomaxes (now Easton) were also trouble-free for close to 10K
I'd say (8K more likely), but then a spoke pulled (ripped) out of the rim.
Still, replacement would have only cost $100 or so, but I got the "dry"
(from day one) hub serviced for an extra $65 and indeed it's much smoother
and quieter now.

Did I read that right? You rode 8-10,000 miles on a wheel with no
grease in the bearings? Then you "spent $170 repairing $450 rear
wheel with maybe 8,000 miles on it"? Servicing a hub after 8,000
miles is not "repair".

No more babying 'em; they're my daily wheels now.
(Bonties still on the Klein, but I only ride that about 30 miles a week or
so.)


At "30 miles a week or so" it will take 13-20 years to "keep 'em
another 20-30K"

On Dec 5, 2:34*pm, slide wrote:

ok. I'm one day out of surgery on both my left knee and right hand.

Ah, another Charleston accident! When will you jitterbuggers learn?