"Professional" fit pet-peeve

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
For example, you can get to the same height with stems of
differing angles, simply by putting spacers above or below it.

Perhaps but is that really the whole story? I don't think so.

I had my first bike set up with spacers - yes it fit me but it also was
weighed down by those spacers making it impossible for me to go uphill
with the original gearing. So I got a different cassette which made it
impossible for me to go downhill. Finding it impossible to swap
cassettes at every dip or crest of hill, I took to carrying the extra
rear wheel, but I kept splitting my rims due to using bladed spokes
which cut through the rim in a hemispheric manner.

Finally, my friend the bicycle expert realized that if I just shed the
*#*&# spacers and went back to the stock cassette, I'd solve all my
problems. I did and it has.

A gram is a gram is a gram.

"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote in message
...
I've had one too many customer come in with their bikes and fit
information from a "professional" bike fitter where, for the stem, the
fitter designated a stem of "x" reach with "y" angle. No big deal? It is
when the "y" angle is something like 81 degrees, and the customer believes
that such a stem should actually exist.

The only relevant measurement for handlebar height is the drop (or rise)
from the top of the saddle. How you get there is irrelevant (aside from
aesthetics). For example, you can get to the same height with stems of
differing angles, simply by putting spacers above or below it. If you need
spacers above and don't think that looks nice, you can cut off the extra
fork column length. The exact angle of the stem is irrelevant, providing
it can get the bars where they need to be.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


We keep seeing the same thing here too. Someone is doing some weird fittings
out there. Once the folks are uncomfortable enough, they start asking others
if there is a better alternative. That is when we seem to get the call. In
the past number of years, there appears to have been a trend toward seats
too low and far back. and bars way too high. It is like there is an attempt
to cater to seriously overweight, softbody customers who should be on
hybrids instead of a race bike.

With the amount of road/charity rides these days, a road bike is a natural
(and correct) choice for the average corporate rider. Maybe the shops just
want to get the folks out of the door quickly, but the fitting errors I am
seeing are really hurting the customers.

On the other hand, there are a number of these custom fitting establishments
opening up. I wonder if bad bike shop fits is a symbiosis of some sort?
Sounds like the link between the food and drug companies in this country.
Has the bike business finally learned from the evil empire?

Bruce

" wrote in message
...
On Dec 9, 5:18 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:
I've had one too many customer come in with their bikes and fit
information from a "professional" bike fitter where, for the stem, the
fitter designated a stem of "x" reach with "y" angle. No big deal? It is
when the "y" angle is something like 81 degrees, and the customer
believes that such a stem should actually exist.

The only relevant measurement for handlebar height is the drop (or rise)
from the top of the saddle. How you get there is irrelevant (aside from
aesthetics). For example, you can get to the same height with stems of
differing angles, simply by putting spacers above or below it. If you
need spacers above and don't think that looks nice, you can cut off the
extra fork column length. The exact angle of the stem is irrelevant,
providing it can get the bars where they need to be.


Take the 80 degree stem behind the service counter
into the shop area, put it on the "stem bending machine,"
bring it back out, and put the customer's new 81 degree
stem onto the bike. No charge for the custom adjustment.
Problem solved.

The stem bending machine is on the back bench next
to the drawer with the left-handed skyhooks.

Ben

But, first send the helper down to the engine room for a bucket of steam...

Bruce

Hi,

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
I've had one too many customer come in with their bikes and fit
information from a "professional" bike fitter where, for the stem, the
fitter designated a stem of "x" reach with "y" angle. No big deal? It is
when the "y" angle is something like 81 degrees, and the customer
believes that such a stem should actually exist.

Well, you can substitute the stem against another with a different angle
as long as the handlebar clamp does not move in relation to the frame.
Take a piece of paper and draw the steer tube, stem and handlebar clamp
(as seen from the side). Add the measurements and show him in the
diagram that you can substitute the stem against a different one if you
correct the steer tube height ;-) Also tell your customer that the
ideal(TM) stem is parallel to the top tube and that the 81° stem misses
that (if it does) while the 76° stem (of course with the slightly longer
top tube) would be ideal... So, no change in handling but a more
appealing bike and the use of "standard" hardware (what if the stem
fails later on) should be an argument.

Actually, my bike dealer would look that up in the catalog in front of
me and tell me "no way dude, take the other one and adopt the head tube
length" - and if I insist he says "you really don't want to do this" - I
know him well enough to adhere to his suggestions :-) Even if I don't
like them...

Ciao..

On Dec 10, 8:14*am, Bernhard Agthe wrote:
Hi,

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
I've had one too many customer come in with their bikes and fit
information from a "professional" bike fitter where, for the stem, the
fitter designated a stem of "x" reach with "y" angle. No big deal? It is
when the "y" angle is something like 81 degrees, and the customer
believes that such a stem should actually exist.

Well, you can substitute the stem against another with a different angle
as long as the handlebar clamp does not move in relation to the frame.
Take a piece of paper and draw the steer tube, stem and handlebar clamp
(as seen from the side). Add the measurements and show him in the
diagram that you can substitute the stem against a different one if you
correct the steer tube height ;-) Also tell your customer that the
ideal(TM) stem is parallel to the top tube and that the 81° stem misses
that (if it does) while the 76° stem (of course with the slightly longer
top tube) would be ideal... So, no change in handling but a more
appealing bike and the use of "standard" hardware (what if the stem
fails later on) should be an argument.

Actually, my bike dealer would look that up in the catalog in front of
me and tell me "no way dude, take the other one and adopt the head tube
length" - and if I insist he says "you really don't want to do this" - I
know him well enough to adhere to his suggestions :-) Even if I don't
like them...

Ciao.

I think that what Mike is trying to argue is the fitters may somehow
come up with ideas that are ridiculous. It is not the angle of the
stem that is important, but the height and distance of the handlebar
in relationship to the saddle. That is what the fitter should be
addressing, and not the angle of the stem per say. So, if instead of
suggesting a stem angle, the fitter needs to come up with a diagram
stipulating the distances, and Mike would be able to figure out the
proper stem. An 80 degree stem with two spacers may yield the same
distance than the purported 81 degree stem with no spacers or a number
of other combinations.

Bit since the fitter said 81 degrees, Mike has to go into the long
explanation as to why another stem works just the same. Then, he comes
here and vents.

On Dec 9, 5:18*pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:
I've had one too many customer come in with their bikes and fit
information from a "professional" bike fitter where, for the stem, the
fitter designated a stem of "x" reach with "y" angle. No big deal? It is
when the "y" angle is something like 81 degrees, and the customer
believes that such a stem should actually exist.

The only relevant measurement for handlebar height is the drop (or rise)
from the top of the saddle. How you get there is irrelevant (aside from
aesthetics). For example, you can get to the same height with stems of
differing angles, simply by putting spacers above or below it. If you
need spacers above and don't think that looks nice, you can cut off the
extra fork column length. The exact angle of the stem is irrelevant,
providing it can get the bars where they need to be.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

We like Andy Pruitt a lot but we get this from him and his bunch all
the time. 104 degree stem please...They need to have a catalog with
possible stems to use a reference.

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message
...
On Dec 9, 5:18 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:
I've had one too many customer come in with their bikes and fit
information from a "professional" bike fitter where, for the stem, the
fitter designated a stem of "x" reach with "y" angle. No big deal? It
is
when the "y" angle is something like 81 degrees, and the customer
believes that such a stem should actually exist.

The only relevant measurement for handlebar height is the drop (or
rise)
from the top of the saddle. How you get there is irrelevant (aside
from
aesthetics). For example, you can get to the same height with stems of
differing angles, simply by putting spacers above or below it. If you
need spacers above and don't think that looks nice, you can cut off
the
extra fork column length. The exact angle of the stem is irrelevant,
providing it can get the bars where they need to be.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

==========
We like Andy Pruitt a lot but we get this from him and his bunch all
the time. 104 degree stem please...They need to have a catalog with
possible stems to use a reference.
=========='

I think it's an attempt to dazzle the customers with tech & jargon &
precision. Actually, I think it's an attempt by companies selling fit
software and systems to try and convince people that you need to provide
this degree of BS to the customer so they think you're offering
something more than the other guy. After all, if the shop down the road
can't figure it out, they must not be doing as good a job, right?

Ultimately it's my hope that this thread will come up in google and be
something people can reference (and understand how silly it is to
believe you need an 81 degree stem).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
For once, a non-rhetorical question: if you were designing a bike fit
system, what would you use as the reference point?

My guess is BB spindle,

I've always documented my bike setups with the BB spindle as the
reference for my own usage so that I can recreate the fit on a different
bike quickly and have always had really good luck with it. Every time I
go to a LBS and ask them to set up a bike using the given measurements
for a test ride I am told "that's not how you do it!" and they refuse to
use my measurements. It's frustrating because I know that they work. I
use the same saddle on all of my bikes (Brooks B17), so it makes it even
easier because differences in saddle nose length go away.

--
Work and recreation are not often effected at the same time.
One using a bicycle in business makes an exception to the rule.
- Dr. Edgar H. Earl, Rochester. (~1892)

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
I've had one too many customer come in with their bikes and fit
information from a "professional" bike fitter where, for the stem, the
fitter designated a stem of "x" reach with "y" angle. No big deal? It is
when the "y" angle is something like 81 degrees, and the customer
believes that such a stem should actually exist.

The only relevant measurement for handlebar height is the drop (or rise)
from the top of the saddle. How you get there is irrelevant (aside from
aesthetics). For example, you can get to the same height with stems of
differing angles, simply by putting spacers above or below it. If you
need spacers above and don't think that looks nice, you can cut off the
extra fork column length. The exact angle of the stem is irrelevant,
providing it can get the bars where they need to be.

Hey, once the guy has spent $300 for a 'personal fitting', what's a
custom stem worth? 2 degrees may be the magic secret McGuffin!
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Dec 10, 9:20*am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in ...
On Dec 9, 5:18 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:





I've had one too many customer come in with their bikes and fit
information from a "professional" bike fitter where, for the stem, the
fitter designated a stem of "x" reach with "y" angle. No big deal? It
is
when the "y" angle is something like 81 degrees, and the customer
believes that such a stem should actually exist.

The only relevant measurement for handlebar height is the drop (or
rise)
from the top of the saddle. How you get there is irrelevant (aside
from
aesthetics). For example, you can get to the same height with stems of
differing angles, simply by putting spacers above or below it. If you
need spacers above and don't think that looks nice, you can cut off
the
extra fork column length. The exact angle of the stem is irrelevant,
providing it can get the bars where they need to be.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

==========
We like Andy Pruitt a lot but we get this from him and his bunch all
the time. 104 degree stem please...They need to have a catalog with
possible stems to use a reference.
=========='

I think it's an attempt to dazzle the customers with tech & jargon &
precision. Actually, I think it's an attempt by companies selling fit
software and systems to try and convince people that you need to provide
this degree of BS to the customer so they think you're offering
something more than the other guy. After all, if the shop down the road
can't figure it out, they must not be doing as good a job, right?

Ultimately it's my hope that this thread will come up in google and be
something people can reference (and understand how silly it is to
believe you need an 81 degree stem).


Mike, you should consider glove shims. Get that extra degree with a
little foam. You'll make a mint -- I'll split royalties with you. --
Jay Beattie.