"Professional" fit pet-peeve

I've had one too many customer come in with their bikes and fit
information from a "professional" bike fitter where, for the stem, the
fitter designated a stem of "x" reach with "y" angle. No big deal? It is
when the "y" angle is something like 81 degrees, and the customer
believes that such a stem should actually exist.

The only relevant measurement for handlebar height is the drop (or rise)
from the top of the saddle. How you get there is irrelevant (aside from
aesthetics). For example, you can get to the same height with stems of
differing angles, simply by putting spacers above or below it. If you
need spacers above and don't think that looks nice, you can cut off the
extra fork column length. The exact angle of the stem is irrelevant,
providing it can get the bars where they need to be.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

In article ,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:

I've had one too many customer come in with their bikes and fit
information from a "professional" bike fitter where, for the stem, the
fitter designated a stem of "x" reach with "y" angle. No big deal? It is
when the "y" angle is something like 81 degrees, and the customer
believes that such a stem should actually exist.

The only relevant measurement for handlebar height is the drop (or rise)
from the top of the saddle. How you get there is irrelevant (aside from
aesthetics). For example, you can get to the same height with stems of
differing angles, simply by putting spacers above or below it. If you
need spacers above and don't think that looks nice, you can cut off the
extra fork column length. The exact angle of the stem is irrelevant,
providing it can get the bars where they need to be.

For once, a non-rhetorical question: if you were designing a bike fit
system, what would you use as the reference point?

My guess is BB spindle,

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:32:25 GMT, Ryan Cousineau
wrote:

In article ,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:

I've had one too many customer come in with their bikes and fit
information from a "professional" bike fitter where, for the stem, the
fitter designated a stem of "x" reach with "y" angle. No big deal? It is
when the "y" angle is something like 81 degrees, and the customer
believes that such a stem should actually exist.

The only relevant measurement for handlebar height is the drop (or rise)
from the top of the saddle. How you get there is irrelevant (aside from
aesthetics). For example, you can get to the same height with stems of
differing angles, simply by putting spacers above or below it. If you
need spacers above and don't think that looks nice, you can cut off the
extra fork column length. The exact angle of the stem is irrelevant,
providing it can get the bars where they need to be.

For once, a non-rhetorical question: if you were designing a bike fit
system, what would you use as the reference point?

My guess is BB spindle,

This is pretty neat -- I like the measurement method of the rider.
http://video.onsight-media.com/retul/retul_videos.htm

JT

On Dec 9, 7:18*pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:
I've had one too many customer come in with their bikes and fit
information from a "professional" bike fitter where, for the stem, the
fitter designated a stem of "x" reach with "y" angle. No big deal? It is
when the "y" angle is something like 81 degrees, and the customer
believes that such a stem should actually exist.

The only relevant measurement for handlebar height is the drop (or rise)
from the top of the saddle. How you get there is irrelevant (aside from
aesthetics). For example, you can get to the same height with stems of
differing angles, simply by putting spacers above or below it. If you
need spacers above and don't think that looks nice, you can cut off the
extra fork column length. The exact angle of the stem is irrelevant,
providing it can get the bars where they need to be.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

sell them a look ergo stem

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

I've had one too many customer come in with their bikes and fit
information from a "professional" bike fitter where, for the stem,
the fitter designated a stem of "x" reach with "y" angle. No big
deal? It is when the "y" angle is something like 81 degrees, and
the customer believes that such a stem should actually exist.

The only relevant measurement for handlebar height is the drop (or
rise) from the top of the saddle. How you get there is irrelevant
(aside from aesthetics). For example, you can get to the same
height with stems of differing angles, simply by putting spacers
above or below it. If you need spacers above and don't think that
looks nice, you can cut off the extra fork column length. The
exact angle of the stem is irrelevant, providing it can get the
bars where they need to be.

For once, a non-rhetorical question: if you were designing a bike
fit system, what would you use as the reference point?

My guess is BB spindle,

I don't believe there is a bicycle "fit system" that can do a good job
without human intervention of good judgment. The best fit system must
include the oddities of the persons limberness and muscular
differences. These are best seen by a person who understands bicycle
positions and can see when the rider is in an optimum position. I
don't believe this can be reduced to numbers and I've seen experienced
bikies do a good job of fitting a rider by having him ride slowly
around a parking lot.

Jobst Brandt

On Dec 9, 6:32*pm, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
In article ,
*"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:

I've had one too many customer come in with their bikes and fit
information from a "professional" bike fitter where, for the stem, the
fitter designated a stem of "x" reach with "y" angle. No big deal? It is
when the "y" angle is something like 81 degrees, and the customer
believes that such a stem should actually exist.

The only relevant measurement for handlebar height is the drop (or rise)
from the top of the saddle. How you get there is irrelevant (aside from
aesthetics). For example, you can get to the same height with stems of
differing angles, simply by putting spacers above or below it. If you
need spacers above and don't think that looks nice, you can cut off the
extra fork column length. The exact angle of the stem is irrelevant,
providing it can get the bars where they need to be.

For once, a non-rhetorical question: if you were designing a bike fit
system, what would you use as the reference point?

My guess is BB spindle,

Wallet. -- Jay Beattie.

"Ryan Cousineau" wrote in message
]...
In article ,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:

I've had one too many customer come in with their bikes and fit
information from a "professional" bike fitter where, for the stem,
the
fitter designated a stem of "x" reach with "y" angle. No big deal? It
is
when the "y" angle is something like 81 degrees, and the customer
believes that such a stem should actually exist.

The only relevant measurement for handlebar height is the drop (or
rise)
from the top of the saddle. How you get there is irrelevant (aside
from
aesthetics). For example, you can get to the same height with stems
of
differing angles, simply by putting spacers above or below it. If you
need spacers above and don't think that looks nice, you can cut off
the
extra fork column length. The exact angle of the stem is irrelevant,
providing it can get the bars where they need to be.

For once, a non-rhetorical question: if you were designing a bike fit
system, what would you use as the reference point?

My guess is BB spindle,

If you're trying to duplicate the fit from one bike to another, that's
correct, start with the bottom bracket and work out from there. Seat
height, seat setback from bottom bracket spindle, distance from seat to
handlebar, drop or rise from seat to handlebar. Basically all the
contact points in some way reference back to the bottom bracket.

Note that doing so won't create two bikes with an identical feel.
Geometry still comes into play; shorter and longer stems create a
different feel, although in my opinion you very quickly get used to the
differences between bike A: with a longer top tube and shorter stem vs
bike B: with a shorter top tube and longer stem. I had two bikes that
differed dramatically in that regard when I raced, and had no issues
switching between them. We are amazingly adaptable to the machine when
we ride.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Jay Beattie wrote:

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

For once, a non-rhetorical question: if you were designing a bike fit
system, what would you use as the reference point?

My guess is BB spindle,

Wallet.

"This one-size-fits-all Roadmaster Mt. Fury fits you perfectly,
sir!"

Chalo

In article ,
wrote:

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

I've had one too many customer come in with their bikes and fit
information from a "professional" bike fitter where, for the stem,
the fitter designated a stem of "x" reach with "y" angle. No big
deal? It is when the "y" angle is something like 81 degrees, and
the customer believes that such a stem should actually exist.

The only relevant measurement for handlebar height is the drop (or
rise) from the top of the saddle. How you get there is irrelevant
(aside from aesthetics). For example, you can get to the same
height with stems of differing angles, simply by putting spacers
above or below it. If you need spacers above and don't think that
looks nice, you can cut off the extra fork column length. The
exact angle of the stem is irrelevant, providing it can get the
bars where they need to be.

For once, a non-rhetorical question: if you were designing a bike
fit system, what would you use as the reference point?

My guess is BB spindle,

I don't believe there is a bicycle "fit system" that can do a good job
without human intervention of good judgment. The best fit system must
include the oddities of the persons limberness and muscular
differences. These are best seen by a person who understands bicycle
positions and can see when the rider is in an optimum position. I
don't believe this can be reduced to numbers and I've seen experienced
bikies do a good job of fitting a rider by having him ride slowly
around a parking lot.

Well, I agree. And indeed, when I finally went for a bike fit this year,
it was quite interesting, and the first thing the fitter did was ask me
what my flexibility, riding experience, and type of riding was.

The parameters available to the rider are pretty broad. Moreover, riders
have different goals on a bike (racing, touring, whatever).

Finally, I wasn't really asking about creating a fit system that was
naught but formulae. I wanted to know what reference point you'd assume
was "zero" for all other measurements.

I had an offline correspondence about this, and that person convinced me
that at least when starting from no position on a fun-and-adjustable fit
rig, the hips are probably the most logical reference point.

But for fitting to an existing bicycle or moving the nailed-down fit to
a real bike, the BB still strikes me as the right reference point.
Special note: offer not valid if you try to change your crank length.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

On Dec 9, 5:18*pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:
I've had one too many customer come in with their bikes and fit
information from a "professional" bike fitter where, for the stem, the
fitter designated a stem of "x" reach with "y" angle. No big deal? It is
when the "y" angle is something like 81 degrees, and the customer
believes that such a stem should actually exist.

The only relevant measurement for handlebar height is the drop (or rise)
from the top of the saddle. How you get there is irrelevant (aside from
aesthetics). For example, you can get to the same height with stems of
differing angles, simply by putting spacers above or below it. If you
need spacers above and don't think that looks nice, you can cut off the
extra fork column length. The exact angle of the stem is irrelevant,
providing it can get the bars where they need to be.


Take the 80 degree stem behind the service counter
into the shop area, put it on the "stem bending machine,"
bring it back out, and put the customer's new 81 degree
stem onto the bike. No charge for the custom adjustment.
Problem solved.

The stem bending machine is on the back bench next
to the drawer with the left-handed skyhooks.

Ben