Ride an SUB not an SUV

On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:14:56 -0500,
(Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:

In article ,
dgk wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:21:47 -0500,
(Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:

Iraq can't work. As soon as the US leaves, the civil war will heat up
full time and continue until some group hostile to the US comes out on
top. This is inevitable, unless the US maintains the occupation
indefinitely.

I disagree completely. It doesn't really matter until our government
is out of power, because they have no intention of ever leaving Iraq.
That's what the 14 permanent bases is all about.

But, assuming we do withdraw the military, things will likely come
together in Iraq, although perhaps not to the liking of former US
corporation Haliburton.

Turkey will not allow the Kurds an independent country so they will
have to negotiate. Saudi Arabia will not allow the Sunnis to be denied
oil wealth so the Shias and Kurds will have to negotiate. Iran will
back the Shia, so the Kurds and Sunnis will have to negotiate.

Another one believing in the fantasy of Iraq being filled with a bunch
of reasonable groups with reasonable aims who are only engaging in
violence because of the bad old United States.


Most folks around the world want only two things, a place to live and
a job. Islam, for the most part, is a peaceful religion. Extremists
exist in all types of religions and exploit them for their own
agendas. Remove the US occupation and the extremists will be on the
outs.

Look at Iran. Before we invaded Iraq, the mullahs were clinging to
power and there were large pro-western demonstrations. As soon as we
invaded, the mullahs were firmly back in power.

Matthew, seriously, what do you thing the invasion of Iraq was all
about? The fact that I even have to ask that question says a lot.

In article ,
dgk wrote:
On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:14:56 -0500,
(Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:


Another one believing in the fantasy of Iraq being filled with a bunch
of reasonable groups with reasonable aims who are only engaging in
violence because of the bad old United States.

Most folks around the world want only two things, a place to live and
a job. Islam, for the most part, is a peaceful religion. Extremists
exist in all types of religions and exploit them for their own
agendas. Remove the US occupation and the extremists will be on the
outs.

Fantasy. Utter fantasy. Remove the US occupation and you still have left
every grudge, every grievance, every complaint that one Iraqi group
has against another, not to mention the complaints they have with
Iraq's neighbors (and Iraq's neighbors likely ambitions in Iraq). The
idea that Iraq is filled with reasonable people turned to radicalism
by the US occupation is simply a fairy tale.

Look at Iran. Before we invaded Iraq, the mullahs were clinging to
power and there were large pro-western demonstrations. As soon as we
invaded, the mullahs were firmly back in power.

Before we invaded Iraq, the mullahs in Iran had been in power for many
years, and they still remain so. They were never in any danger of
being ousted.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

On Apr 9, 8:35 pm, "Fred G. Mackey" wrote:
Dave Head wrote:
On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 07:09:23 GMT, Bill wrote:

So why are these people driving these lame ass SUV's?

Again.

People drive lame-ass SUV's because they occasionally need one and only have
money enough for 1 vehicle. They occasionally need one because:

That's the reason some people drive them. Others drive them for no good
reason other than we have a thing called freedom in the US.

I'd call it "freedom to pollute"... But should there be such a
freedom, or freedom should be better understood to mean...

Herbert J. Muller. (1964). Freedom in the Western World:
From the Dark Ages to the Rise of Democracy
"I am adhering to the broad but relatively neutral definition of
freedom as 'the condition of being able to choose and carry out
purposes.' This includes the most common meaning of the absence of
external constraints, or freedom from coercion; the idea of actual
ability with available means, or effective freedom to do what one
wishes; and the assumption of a power of deliberate choice between
known alternatives, involving freedom of mind and spirit, which is
hardest to specify but still distinguishes human freedom from the
ability of other animals to carry out their instinctive purposes. In
the words of Christian Bay, 'A person is free to the extent that he
has the capacity, the opportunity, and the incentive to give
expression to what is in him and to develop his potentialities.'

"So defined, I repeat, freedom means concretely freedoms of various
kinds, which may be at least roughly specified. Among the most
fundamental is political freedom, involving some means of control of
rulers by the ruled, some protection of the individual against
government by legal rights or civil liberties."

But for most of history...

The ruling powers tended to adopt one or a combination of these:

plutocracy - rule through wealth
militarism - rule through military power
sacerdotalism - rule through religious dogma and practice
oligarchy - rule through a small cabal

"In general, the common people enjoyed little if any freedom, serving
at the behest of their rulers. The rulers kept their subjects under
control through conditioning them with religions which sanctioned the
ruler's power. Common people were forced to work at mind- and body-
destroying jobs which gave them no time or energy for reflective
thought or unified reform activities."

So the "freedom" to drive an SUV (Supersized Unnecessary Vehicle) has
more to do with the freedom MONEY buys you (PLUTOCRACY) and little to
do with human freedom (DEMOCRACY), in which we still may not do much
better than the cavemen, with due respect to those who didn't use the
stick as a way of life.

"The outstanding ingredient which the Greeks contributed to the
evolution of human freedom was the concept of democracy: the rule of
citizens. The idea now became a part of human thought: that common
people could and should govern themselves, without having to bow to a
military, political, economic, or religious ruler. This concept was to
play an important role throughout modern history, as people returned
to the idea that they could rule themselves. As we shall see, this
ideal of citizen self-rule is still unrealized, even in twenty-first-
century America. However, the ideal continues to have a powerful
influence over human thought and serves as a goal toward which we can
aspire."

http://www.hermes-press.com/history1.htm

So, I guess, FREEDOM COMES IN A BICYCLE, at least democracy does...

On Apr 9, 9:40 pm, "di" wrote:
"donquijote1954" wrote in message

oups.com...



Lions and monkeys don't want the same. Lions dream of big and pompous.
Monkeys are more into practical, fun things like bikes, motorcycles
and EVs. And they are beautiful, just not pompous.

The only areawhere you are #1 is in ribbons...

http://blogorelli.typepad.com/photos...ed/ribbons.gif

This doesn't make any sense at all to me, I guess you need to explain it.
But then again, not much you ever say makes much sense.

So many bumper stickers and ribbons on SUVs... I guess they want to
show their support for the troops but keep burning gas like supporting
terrorism. Or perhaps they just want to hide the latter fact. Anyway,
this their latest bumper sticker...

http://www.toppun.com/ProductImages/...rive_small.gif

"So defined, I repeat, freedom means concretely freedoms of various
kinds, which may be at least roughly specified. Among the most
fundamental is political freedom, involving some means of control of
rulers by the ruled, some protection of the individual against
government by legal rights or civil liberties."

,

and we all know how well that worked out. Sorry could not resist

You mean freedom to kill ourselves on a bicycle is at least democracy.

Drivers have a superiority complex. They will never be motivated to govern
themselves for the good of the people. Sad note eh! : (

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Do stay on track - the issue is whether we spend hundreds of
billions
of
dollars on Iraqi's or whether we spend a tenth of that on our
own
people.

(and yes, there are reports that elections are not particularly
fair
in
LA.)

Then why did you bring up your feeling that the people of
Louisiana
are
somehow downtrodden in a way that Mississippians aren't?

Your question is nonsensical.

Obviously you don't have an answer then.

No, your question is nonsensical in this context. Your question
might
be
more appropriate in context with the US Attorneys firings that are in
the
news.

I see you've learned one of George Conklin's less admirable
techniques...If
someone disagrees with you or questions you further, declare the
comment/question irrelevant, drivel, or nonsensical. Nice :-)

Then suppose you detail that relevance for us?

That's what I was asking you to do.

Let's see - you want *me* to explain the relelavance of *your* response?!
That's the sort of thing Conklin does.

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"george conklin" wrote in message
link.net...


That's for sure. From a man whose job used to be cutting down our
forests,

What do you gain from lies like this, georgie porgie? You've been told
again and again that I've not cut a single tree in any of our forests.

but seems unemployed now.

I'm supposed to be retired - but I have my own company and am working harder
than ever -- or at least it seems that way. Next time you get nailed by one
of those radar speed signs, think of me.

"Baxter" wrote in message
...
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"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
...

"Baxter" wrote in message
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"Amy Blankenship" wrote in message
...

"Baxter" wrote in message
...

"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
message
...

"Baxter" wrote in message
...
"Amy Blankenship" wrote in
message
.. .

"Baxter" wrote in message
...

Do stay on track - the issue is whether we spend hundreds of
billions
of
dollars on Iraqi's or whether we spend a tenth of that on our
own
people.

(and yes, there are reports that elections are not
particularly
fair
in
LA.)

Then why did you bring up your feeling that the people of
Louisiana
are
somehow downtrodden in a way that Mississippians aren't?

Your question is nonsensical.

Obviously you don't have an answer then.

No, your question is nonsensical in this context. Your question
might
be
more appropriate in context with the US Attorneys firings that are
in
the
news.

I see you've learned one of George Conklin's less admirable
techniques...If
someone disagrees with you or questions you further, declare the
comment/question irrelevant, drivel, or nonsensical. Nice :-)

Then suppose you detail that relevance for us?

That's what I was asking you to do.

Let's see - you want *me* to explain the relelavance of *your* response?!
That's the sort of thing Conklin does.

No, I want you to explain why you think your feeling that the people of New
Orleans are somehow uniquely downtrodden has anything to do with the topic
of this threat or even this forum as a whole. And as an aside, do you have
any direct experience of the area that was hit by Katrina to base your
reaction on?

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"Matthew T. Russotto" wrote in message
t...

Fantasy. Utter fantasy. Remove the US occupation and you still have left
every grudge, every grievance, every complaint that one Iraqi group
has against another, not to mention the complaints they have with
Iraq's neighbors (and Iraq's neighbors likely ambitions in Iraq). The
idea that Iraq is filled with reasonable people turned to radicalism
by the US occupation is simply a fairy tale.

Leave them to work out their own problems. Or do you think we should be a
Nanny State?