cyclops/saris hub damage with 10sp Shimano cassettes

On Fri, 11 May 2007 09:35:20 -0700, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:


sorry mike, but when i pay serious bucks for a boutique hub, i want the
thing to work. without being damaged through some moron's non-engineering
oversight. it's not like this is hard to get right.

This reminds me of threads about how seriously-deficient Octalink & Isis
splines are. Lots of talk about how bad a design, but no evidence of greater
failure than something "better."


Yup.

Just like the thread on cut versus rolled threads - lots of alarmist
blather & errors, but no examples of failure. Well, one, but that turned
out to be a lie.

On May 11, 11:35 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galler.../DSCF3807.html
happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.

stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
[steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.

Or don't and suffer the consequences... er, except that you won't. Truth
is, it's virtually unknown to have someone actually have their cassette
cogs spin on the mechanism because they've dug in as shown in the photos
(and, by the way, my own cassette body looks a lot worse than what's
shown in the photos).

sorry mike, but when i pay serious bucks for a boutique hub, i want the
thing to work. without being damaged through some moron's non-engineering
oversight. it's not like this is hard to get right.

This reminds me of threads about how seriously-deficient Octalink & Isis
splines are. Lots of talk about how bad a design, but no evidence of greater
failure than something "better."

Yes, it would be convenient if you didn't have to rotate cogs backward to
extract them because they dug into the hub. But I don't see it as impeding
the function of the bike, or in fact as anything more than a minor
annoyance.

I would much rather see people spend less time worrying about cassette
splines and crank arm attchments and more time on coming up with a chain
that doesn't require lubrication (and yet is efficient, quiet &
lightweight). Oh, and while we're at it, how about tires that are supple,
low rolling resistance, long life and have greater puncture resistance.
Improvements in those areas would make for, in my opinion, huge leaps in
participation and enjoyment of cycling.


Huh? Chain lubrication is a big deal in the Bay area? Causing people
to not ride their bikes and not enjoy it? And people in the Bay area
won't ride their bikes or hate it when they do if they have to choose
between light racy tires that will flat, or heavy durable tires that
won't? Do people in the Bay area quit bicycling because they have
flat tires?




--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"jim beam" wrote in message

t...



Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galler.../DSCF3807.html
happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.

stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
[steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.

Or don't and suffer the consequences... er, except that you won't. Truth
is, it's virtually unknown to have someone actually have their cassette
cogs spin on the mechanism because they've dug in as shown in the photos
(and, by the way, my own cassette body looks a lot worse than what's
shown in the photos).

sorry mike, but when i pay serious bucks for a boutique hub, i want the
thing to work. without being damaged through some moron's non-engineering
oversight. it's not like this is hard to get right.

The only real downside, apart from creating a whole lot of fear,
uncertainty & doubt, is that it makes it more difficult to remove the
cogs from the cassette mechanism, since they've rotated beyond their
grooves a bit. Easiest way to deal with it is to use a chain whip and
simply rotate them back in the other direction a bit. I don't want to
admit how long it was before I thought about doing something so simple &
obvious...

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would much rather see people spend less time worrying about cassette
splines and crank arm attchments and more time on coming up with a chain
that doesn't require lubrication (and yet is efficient, quiet &
lightweight). Oh, and while we're at it, how about tires that are supple,
low rolling resistance, long life and have greater puncture resistance.
Improvements in those areas would make for, in my opinion, huge leaps in
participation and enjoyment of cycling.


Huh? Chain lubrication is a big deal in the Bay area? Causing people
to not ride their bikes and not enjoy it? And people in the Bay area
won't ride their bikes or hate it when they do if they have to choose
between light racy tires that will flat, or heavy durable tires that
won't? Do people in the Bay area quit bicycling because they have
flat tires?

Hard to believe, but there are still a few (very few) shops around that just
don't get it, and think that reduction in flats would be a bad thing because
it would cut down on their repair profits. Terribly short sighted; if people
didn't have to worry about flat tires, there'd be a lot more people riding.

--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com

On 11 May 2007 08:13:33 -0700, "
wrote:

I doubt any of these cassettes would fix the
problem since the pictures show the damage to the freehub body
occurring where the small cogs sit. And no one puts the smallest cogs
onto carriers to spread the load.

Not SRAM?
--
JT
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Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

Hard to believe, but there are still a few (very few) shops around that just
don't get it, and think that reduction in flats would be a bad thing because
it would cut down on their repair profits. Terribly short sighted; if people
didn't have to worry about flat tires, there'd be a lot more people riding.

I've seduced about half the commuters at my work to the dark side already.

Schwalbe Marathon Plus

One flat so far: A rear flat to my tire from a 2" nail.

--
Dane Buson -
"sic transit discus mundi"
(From the System Administrator's Guide, by Lars Wirzenius)

On Fri, 11 May 2007 15:24:47 -0700, Dane Buson
wrote:

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

Hard to believe, but there are still a few (very few) shops around that just
don't get it, and think that reduction in flats would be a bad thing because
it would cut down on their repair profits. Terribly short sighted; if people
didn't have to worry about flat tires, there'd be a lot more people riding.

I've seduced about half the commuters at my work to the dark side already.

Schwalbe Marathon Plus

One flat so far: A rear flat to my tire from a 2" nail.

Dear Dane,

Bah! Only steel is real!

(For tires, not frames.)

Let's see a new-fangled tire match these armor-plated beauties:

"The oft-prophesied puncture-proof tire is still the subject of much
experiment in the endeavor to discover a fabric which cannot be
penetrated by an ordinary sharp instrument without the loss of
resiliency in its manufacture. The Chicago Puncture-Proof Tire Company
exhibited at the Western show tires fitted with armor consisting
of pieces of steel 21/4 inches wide by .005 of an inch thick, made
under great pressure and very elastic. . . ."

"The Dean tire [see diagram] is one of the novelties of 1897, having a
series of scales laid in the fabric, overlapping each other, and
riveted together in such a manner as to allow them to move slightly
when the wheel is in motion. These scales are six thousandths of an
inch thick, about three fourths of an inch wide, and while adding
about seven ounces to the weight of the tire, maintain a resilient
tread, nearly if not quite puncture-proof."

Even super-Slime was available in the form of Vimoid in 1897:

" . . . the Vim tire is typical, and Vimoid, a special preparation
of the Boston Woven Hose and Rubber Company, being forced into a
puncture, cut or gash, quickly hardens, assuming the character
of rubber, and effecting a permanent repair."

Slightly off-topic, but no dust-proof water-tight modern cyclocomputer
comes in thirty handsome models or can match the performance of the
lightweight 1897 model:

"The 'Veeder' cyclometer enjoys the distinction of being the lightest
manufactured. It is at the same time dust-proof, water-tight, and made
to register from one to ten thousand miles. It was shown in thirty
different styles of finish at the recent bicycle shows, with one
attached to an electric motor, run at the rate of a mile in from three
seconds to a second and a half."

Let's see a modern digital cyclocomputer register mileage accurately
at 1,200 to 2,400 mph!

"Outing" magazine, 1897

http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/O.../outXXX01w.pdf

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Fri, 11 May 2007 15:24:47 -0700, Dane Buson
wrote:

I've seduced about half the commuters at my work to the dark side already.

Schwalbe Marathon Plus

One flat so far: A rear flat to my tire from a 2" nail.

I'm scared of difficulty getting that tire on and off.

I must also say, with Mr. Tuffies I get almost no flats. Perhaps one
every year or so and it's usually from something big and knarly.
--
JT
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On Fri, 11 May 2007 15:24:47 -0700, Dane Buson
wrote:

I've seduced about half the commuters at my work to the dark side already.

Schwalbe Marathon Plus

One flat so far: A rear flat to my tire from a 2" nail.

I'm scared of difficulty getting that tire on and off.

Getting it on the first time was rather difficult. Getting it off and
on the second time was not too bad. I haven't done enough mileage to
need to swap on new tires yet.

They are showing signs of wear, but I haven't needed to replace them
yet. I put the front on October of 2005. The rear has seen less miles
because I swapped another wheel on when I needed to swap in a new rim.
I put about 6000 miles a year on this bike.

I must also say, with Mr. Tuffies I get almost no flats. Perhaps one
every year or so and it's usually from something big and knarly.

I've never tried them.

--
Dane Buson -
When I woke up this morning, my girlfriend asked if I had slept well.
I said, "No, I made a few mistakes."
-- Steven Wright

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galler.../DSCF3807.html
happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.

stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
[steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.
Or don't and suffer the consequences... er, except that you won't. Truth
is, it's virtually unknown to have someone actually have their cassette
cogs spin on the mechanism because they've dug in as shown in the photos
(and, by the way, my own cassette body looks a lot worse than what's
shown in the photos).
sorry mike, but when i pay serious bucks for a boutique hub, i want the
thing to work. without being damaged through some moron's non-engineering
oversight. it's not like this is hard to get right.

This reminds me of threads about how seriously-deficient Octalink & Isis
splines are. Lots of talk about how bad a design, but no evidence of greater
failure than something "better."

"deficient"? do they yield?


Yes, it would be convenient if you didn't have to rotate cogs backward to
extract them because they dug into the hub. But I don't see it as impeding
the function of the bike, or in fact as anything more than a minor
annoyance.

snip

minor annoyance??? that's gross yielding of the material - it's
completely negligent. but what i /really/ don't understand is why you
think that acceptable performance on a $1,500 hub!!!

In article ,
jim beam wrote:

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
http://www.aboc.com.au/images/galler.../DSCF3807.html
happens all the time with "boutique" shimano-copy hubs. shimano know
this - that's why their free hub bodies are either steel, ti, or deep
spline aluminum. embarrassingly basic error if you ask me.

stick to shimano or mavic or someone that knows how to make a proper
[steel or ti or deep spline aluminum] freehub body.
Or don't and suffer the consequences... er, except that you won't. Truth
is, it's virtually unknown to have someone actually have their cassette
cogs spin on the mechanism because they've dug in as shown in the photos
(and, by the way, my own cassette body looks a lot worse than what's
shown in the photos).
sorry mike, but when i pay serious bucks for a boutique hub, i want the
thing to work. without being damaged through some moron's non-engineering
oversight. it's not like this is hard to get right.

This reminds me of threads about how seriously-deficient Octalink & Isis
splines are. Lots of talk about how bad a design, but no evidence of
greater
failure than something "better."

"deficient"? do they yield?

Octalink spindles don't yield, but I've seen enough cranks where the
spline interface is chewed up worse than an aluminum freehub shell to be
happy something better is out there. Jobst has proposed the cause of
this failure, and his thesis seems sensible to me.

Ironically, the spindles are probably just fine,

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos