Ergomo and Power Tap comparison

Yes you look like you definitely need a drink! Just look at those eyes you
can see the craving for beer in them!! :-)


"Ewoud Dronkert" wrote in message
l.nl...
On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:20:03 GMT, Phil wrote:
This is a screenshot of what can happen mid ride if you neglect to drink
for
a period in hot weather
http://users.pandora.be/phil.stone/Dehydration.png

Here's another: http://www.phys.uu.nl/~dronkert/tmp/20030920/?img=28

Yes, I should have been more specific; MHR is stable in any given
person over a short period of time, but my experience has shown little
in the way of evidence that MHR increases. If anything, it should
decrease, but even then, I can't see how it would show a statistically
significant change. However, I took the liberty to pull out this from
the paper you cited:

"...analysis reveals that HRmax can be altered by 3 to 7% with aerobic
training/detraining. However, because of a lack of research in the
area of training on HRmax, the reader should remain speculative and
allow for cautious interpretation until further, more thorough
investigations are carried out as to the confirmation of mechanisms
involved. Despite the limitations of using HR and HRmax as a guide to
training intensity, the practical implications of monitoring changing
HRmax a (i) prescribed training intensities may be more precisely
monitored; and (ii) prevention of overtraining may possibly be
enhanced. As such, it may be sensible to monitor HRmax directly in
athletes throughout the training year, perhaps at every macrocycle (3
to 6 weeks)."

This indicates that it is too early to say HR max changes. I have
never known it to increase much. My own experience when out of top
condition is that I can attain & sustain very high HR's (near 200)
easily, but at much lower power outputs (ie, I'm going super hard
while getting shelled!). When I've super fit, it rarely see anything
over 194. This tells me that MHR decreases some, but it is
detraining, not taper that causes the increase in MHR. It is
important to deliniate between the two; tapering is used for peaking,
detraining is used for retirement.

CH

I would use a % of MHR minus resting heart rate. From that info you can get
zones that will fit well with the majority of riders or at least the riders
I've had contact with over the years. Remember even knowing what LT was on
the day you did the test does not necessarily mean it will be spot on the
same the following day/week/Month but it could be close & close is as good
as you can get when setting off on a training ride.

Using Lactate test could be a even better way but then you may as well use
Power & your back to doing tests etc. The above way works great for working
out aerobic zones for the winter & for getting an idea of how hard a rider
that you may have never met was riding. If you like send me a file with your
max & rest HR & see how they compare to your coaches levels it would be
interesting to see how far out my way is. In the past I've used this method
to look at various files posted about on the net & compare them to my self !
;-I

Oh I forgot years ago I made a little calculator for HR zones here
http://www.turbovids.net/Excel/PhilsTraininglevels.xls Just fill in your
Max & resting HR (top left) & your zones will be calculated. The weight body
mass thing should be ok as the maths came off the wattage forum! Ignore the
Power stuff on the right that's extremely suspect & I have not bothered to
try & fix it.

all the best Phil www.turbovids.net



"warren" wrote in message
...
In article , Phil
wrote:

Yes Max HR does change & its this change that I find incredibly useful
towards the end of the year in Belgium. Short term fatigue will lower
your
Max HR as well as raise resting HR (for me). If Im in form but race bad
due
to work & lack of sleep my Max HR will be low (below 180bpm). If I race
bad
& HR is above 180bpm then I know for sure that its something else other
then
work/sleep deprivation! I have 100s of race curves & results that show
this.
Its how I know when to race, when to rest & when to stop for the year.
I've
turned up at races & placed in the 1st 3 with only 3hrs sleep but HR was
always above that 180bpm line never ever below so is not just a matter
of
not racing after work.

I have worked out a whole battery of little tests to do prior to racing
that
can predict the fatigue but the in race Max HR test is the most fool
proof &
easy to do.

A other great thing about HR is looking at data & curves from a rider
that
you do not know so well. All you need is his Max & rest HR & you then
can
tell just at what intensity the rider was riding at,

How do *you* measure "intensity"? PE? Lactate? Some certain % of MHR?
How do you know whether you're looking at a rider who has a LTHR at 80%
of their MHR or at 90% of their MHR? If you don't know that, then how
do you know what intensity they're at just by looking at HR?

-WG

In article , chris
wrote:
Personally, I believe that
maximal lactate steady state (highest stable lactate over at least 20
min) is far more representative of what we have considered LT than an
LT test itself. But it is also far more time consuming to test for.

During those 20 minute tests, how often do you see something
significantly different than 4mMol, or get information that's different
from what power/HR at 4mMol would tell you?

-WG

In article , chris
wrote:

It is very difficult to decipher specific things from a lactate curve.
While it wouldn't be appropriate for to comment about Max's comments,
because I've never discussed this with him, but what typically happens
with lactate is that you'll get an initial spike (maybe as high as 3
mM) with a decrease in HLa despite an increase in workload (assuming
the load fairly low). This represents the an increase in HLa
production & removal and then subsequent utilization.

IIRC that's almost verbatim what Max said about this.

What I will say
about curves is that it is difficult to look at a single lactate curve
by itself to determine any strength or weakness, because they are are
not really that specific.

I recently witnessed a woman on a ramped treadmill lactate test
(increasing incline) and her lactate curve was virtually flat for a
very long time and then spiked up dramatically and she was done for. I
supposed it was because she lacked development of her type 2 fibers and
when they were needed she got no help from them. My first lactate test
with Max showed a bit of this and Max said there was indication that I
was good at going very slow, and very fast, but not good in between. My
training then contained alot of work to correct this.

-WG

In article , Phil
wrote:

I would use a % of MHR minus resting heart rate. From that info you can get
zones that will fit well with the majority of riders or at least the riders
I've had contact with over the years. Remember even knowing what LT was on
the day you did the test does not necessarily mean it will be spot on the
same the following day/week/Month but it could be close & close is as good
as you can get when setting off on a training ride.

Using Lactate test could be a even better way but then you may as well use
Power & your back to doing tests etc. The above way works great for working
out aerobic zones for the winter & for getting an idea of how hard a rider
that you may have never met was riding. If you like send me a file with your
max & rest HR & see how they compare to your coaches levels it would be
interesting to see how far out my way is.

Oh I forgot years ago I made a little calculator for HR zones here
http://www.turbovids.net/Excel/PhilsTraininglevels.xls


Well... after entering in my MHR, RHR, LT watts and LTHR and the
calculator was a bit off what's been suggested for my training. HR was
too high by about 5-8bpm, power was too high for most zones, especially
for Level 3 and level 4, but currently my power isn't great in those
areas- "Stone/Allen effect"!


I gotta say, requiring a rider to determine their MHR seems harder, and
less accurate than some kind of time trial to determine their
approximate starting point(s) for training zones, especially if the
person isn't racing (makes it "easier" to know MHR). But like you say,
for winter training maybe it's close enough.

-WG

Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:20:03 GMT, Phil wrote:

This is a screenshot of what can happen mid ride if you neglect to drink for
a period in hot weather http://users.pandora.be/phil.stone/Dehydration.png


Here's another: http://www.phys.uu.nl/~dronkert/tmp/20030920/?img=28

I can do better. In the data I posted a while back in this thread, one
of the data sets shows what happens when the test athlete's rectal
thermometer falls out...

In article ,
Ewoud Dronkert wrote:

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 20:20:03 GMT, Phil wrote:
This is a screenshot of what can happen mid ride if you neglect to drink for
a period in hot weather http://users.pandora.be/phil.stone/Dehydration.png

Here's another: http://www.phys.uu.nl/~dronkert/tmp/20030920/?img=28

If one goes into the place seen in:
http://www.phys.uu.nl/~dronkert/tmp/20030920/?img=13
is everything labeled "Food" or "Drink" (or "Beer")? (with a tip o' the hat
to "Repo Man".)

--
tanx,
Howard

"Danger, you haven't seen the last of me!"
"No, but the first of you turns my stomach!"
Firesign Theatre

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 04:57:43 GMT, Howard Kveck wrote:
If one goes into the place seen in:
http://www.phys.uu.nl/~dronkert/tmp/20030920/?img=13
is everything labeled "Food" or "Drink" (or "Beer")? (with a tip o' the hat
to "Repo Man".)

Sorry I didn't see the movie, don't know what you're referring to.
Besides, I did not go inside. The guys weren't there for food or drink
either; one seatpostbolt was broken.

In article ,
Ewoud Dronkert wrote:

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 04:57:43 GMT, Howard Kveck wrote:
If one goes into the place seen in:
http://www.phys.uu.nl/~dronkert/tmp/20030920/?img=13
is everything labeled "Food" or "Drink" (or "Beer")? (with a tip o' the hat
to "Repo Man".)

Sorry I didn't see the movie, don't know what you're referring to.
Besides, I did not go inside. The guys weren't there for food or drink
either; one seatpostbolt was broken.

The name on the building was what got me thinking: the extremely generic
"Shop" (a bit more clarity on that might have been helpful). Too bad about
the seatpost bolt, that's not the sort of thing you normally plan ahead
for. A few months ago, I had a post break - had to tie it in place with an
innertube and ride two hours back. Not fun but I lived to tell the tale.

--
tanx,
Howard

"Danger, you haven't seen the last of me!"
"No, but the first of you turns my stomach!"
Firesign Theatre

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?