Frame waxing

On Jun 23, 4:20*pm, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 21:29:45 GMT, Keiron
wrote:

I'm not too prissy about how my bike looks, even my best bike would be
considered a total beater by most, but English weather, only trumped by
the even more changeable Scottish weather, leaves grit all over my bikes..

Acid rain rotting the exposed surfaces? *The wax also seals the dings
preventing the underlying metal from rusting. *No clue what it will do
to carbon fiber.

I'm thinking of waxing the frames so that it is both easier to quickly
wash the bikes with a hose on those really bad occasions and so that some
dirt is repelled from drive components in order to increase they're
lifespan/usefulness.

Yep. *I wax the frame in order to make the bike more sellable. *I
blundered across this stuff:
http://www.meguiarsdirect.com/product_detail.asp?T1=MEG+MC20206
which is made for motorcycles. *There are others made for vehicles and
motorcycles that will work. *I figured it was good enough for my
bicycles. *Two years so far and it's still shiny and easy to clean.
Watch out for abrasive waxes. *Abrasives will give the painted
surfaces a cleaner and better polish, but will also trash your decals
and stickers.

To this end I'm thinking about using a solid wax, beeswax or paraffin,
and applying it so as to leave a good mm of solid wax in place,
especially on the bb shell and chainstays.

No benefit to having a really thick coating. *All that does it capture
dirt. *You need to have it sufficiently thin so that the crud doesn't
stick. *Use the well known automobile and motorcycle products instead.

Has anyone done this with any
success? Can any one think of negatives? Attracting more grit for example?

One downside is that you have to buff to get a decent wax job. *There
are many places on a bicycle that are difficult to buff, so you might
leave some hard wax behind as white dust in some obscure places. *The
roof rack on my Subaru is like that. *Where I couldn't buff, is now a
white streaked mess.

To create maximum damage, I clever discovered that window cleaner
(with ammonia) will nicely remove wax. *So, I tried to remove the
white crud with some Windex. *That took the wax off the paint, and
left it on the roof rack on my Subaru. *I had to re-apply the wax to
the painted surfaces, leaving even more white dust. *Can't win.

How do we think this would work on drive components? Too slippery?

If you can't find a technical merit to using an alternative lube, then
sticking with the conventional lubricants is a safer and better
option. *Experimentation is always interesting, but only if there's a
good reason. *

One of my friends proposed a line of "natural" lubricants, all of them
refined from plants. *There's no technical benefit, except to be able
to advertise as "natural" or possibly "organic" lubes, for those with
an aversion to petro products.

Your thought welcomed.

Oops. *I supplied more than one thought.

--
Jeff Liebermann * *
150 Felker St #D * *http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann * * AE6KS * *831-336-2558

One downside is that you have to buff to get a decent wax job. *There
are many places on a bicycle that are difficult to buff, so you might
leave some hard wax behind as white dust in some obscure places. *The
roof rack on my Subaru is like that. *Where I couldn't buff, is now a
white streaked mess.

Jeff
Have you tried a soft brush? For many years I've waxed the paint &
“AmorAll”ed
(or equivalent) the plastic parts, on cars, motorcycles, & bicycles.
It seems to me that the “AmorAll” has stopped the wax @ the
interfaces
from drying on white, & followed w/ a soft brush.
YMMV, JD

On Jun 26, 9:42 am, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:20:55 -0700 (PDT), Dan O
wrote:

Drive chains are to bicycles as printers are to computers: They work
fine; problem is the upkeep.

I fix HP printers and assorted computahs in my shop. Bicycles are
built much better than printers and computahs, and are also much
easier to fix.


Sure - not exactly the same thing at all, but I have much experience
with both, and still think this is to that as the other is to it.

Ever worked on IBM Microchannel stuff? (I have a tone of it - people
were practically putting it out on the curb in favor of newer cheap
crap. Think Rolls Royce.)

One could easily design a bicycle for minimal maintenance. Sealed
bearings, water resistant joints, non-corrosive materials, no
dissimilar metals, protected drive train, modular components, minimum
adjustments, solid foam tires, disk wheels, etc. It would look like a
bicycle, weigh more, kinda slow, seriously expensive, but last
forever. Imagine what a bicycle built to MIL specs would look like.
Another approach would be like the current low end laser printers.
When it breaks, throw it away. Make the principal components of the
bicycle expendable, and the maintenance problem evaporates.


Even chains? Even where it rains?

(Did I say this twice? Google seems to be losing its perspective on
its very special place in the world.)

Type:
$ echo off
and the duplications will go away. If you're still seeing double,
adjust your reading glasses.


That wasn't it. Google sputtered for a bit updating usenet for me and
then just went dark until this morning. I couldn't remember all the
keystrokes for Gnus, and had other stuff to do for a few days, so you
guys got a break from my yammering blather :-)

On Jun 26, 9:50*pm, Chris M wrote:
On Jun 23, 2:29*pm, Keiron wrote:

Hello all,

I'm not too prissy

It matters very much what material you are "waxing." I use the same
materials on my German car and all the bike gear, but that was enamel
paint (aside from the aluminum, carbon, plastics, etc.) Any place that
can collect dust that isn't lubed gets the same treatment. Before I
switched to Speedplay in 1993, I waxed my Look cleats too. This
includes the plastic/carbon bits on the shoes, everything shiny but my
legs.

Shave with a knife and apply baby oil. Buff with a chamois leather,
they'll come up a treat.

On Jun 27, 1:00*am, john B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:55:47 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:



john B. considered Sun, 26 Jun 2011 18:29:36
+0700 the perfect time to write:

On Sun, 26 Jun 2011 06:32:06 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

john B. considered Sun, 26 Jun 2011 07:55:27
+0700 the perfect time to write:

On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 07:18:16 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
wrote:

On Jun 25, 1:21 pm, john B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 18:31:45 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six

I am convinced that the roller chain is unlikely to be superceded for
everyday bicycle use in the forseable future.
Wire rope transmissionsdo have the advantage of simplifying designs of
folding bikes, but outside this market of being able to carry a bike
on a train as hand luggage and keep your trousers clean, they are
unlikely to catch on.

You could go to a Synchronous belt if you don't alter the chain line.
Gates says up to 99% efficient. In contrast to a normal bicycle chain
at around 98 percent.

The 98% claim in roller chain efficiency was made using relatively
primative lubricants, before the commercial availability of molybdenum
disulphide in the early 60's. *It's nearly 50 years, you'd have
thought it might have caught on. *With this wonder lube and a roller
chain constructed with utmost accuracy, the drivechain would likely
have a loss of less than 0.25% making it comparable to wheel bearing
efficiency. *The biggest mechanical drag will then likely be the
roller bearings in the modern snazzy pedals. *Of course, they can also
be treated. *Next stop, lubrication nipples for the knees.

I think that you are attributing more to Moly-disulphide lubrication
then it deserves. The most common attribute I can find listed for it
is that it withstands high temperatures better then some other
additives. Certainly when I was working on airplanes, courtesy of the
U.S.A.F. it was commonly used as an anti-seize on jet engines.

True it has the ability to plate surfaces which results in improved
lubrication but whether it can improve chain efficiency by an
additional 1+ percent may well be less then accurate.

The big benefit of plating surfaces is to reduce startup wear on
engines that rely on oil pressure to maintain bearing clearance.
Seems like that would work pretty well on a roller chain as well.

I wasn't trying to say that molybdenum-disulfide isn't good (although
I have my doubts) but that it is going to be rather difficult to
improve a chain running at 98 - 99% efficiency that last 1 - 2%.

But if the benefit is improved wear, it isn't the efficiency when new
that's going to improve.
The efficiency gain will be much further along the chain's life, which
should itself be extended.

So not a lot of difference (if any) for the pros out there, but for
the rest of us, longer life and less degradation.

I'm not even sure whether sloshing M-D on the chain is going to make
an appreciable difference in chain wear. The design of bicycle chains
quite simply ignores the question of chain life in favor of number of
gears. My guess is that if you could run the chain in a clean
environment any reasonable lubrication system would produce about the
same chain life.

You obviously belong to the church of non-belief. Among such non-
belief is tyre treads don't work, tied and soldered spokes don't work
and wheel bearings run in oil is playing into the hands of industrial
oil suppliers. "Grease is where it's at." ;-)

On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 09:25:10 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
wrote:

On Jun 27, 1:00*am, john B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:55:47 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:



john B. considered Sun, 26 Jun 2011 18:29:36
+0700 the perfect time to write:

On Sun, 26 Jun 2011 06:32:06 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

john B. considered Sun, 26 Jun 2011 07:55:27
+0700 the perfect time to write:

On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 07:18:16 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
wrote:

On Jun 25, 1:21 pm, john B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 18:31:45 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six

I am convinced that the roller chain is unlikely to be superceded for
everyday bicycle use in the forseable future.
Wire rope transmissionsdo have the advantage of simplifying designs of
folding bikes, but outside this market of being able to carry a bike
on a train as hand luggage and keep your trousers clean, they are
unlikely to catch on.

You could go to a Synchronous belt if you don't alter the chain line.
Gates says up to 99% efficient. In contrast to a normal bicycle chain
at around 98 percent.

The 98% claim in roller chain efficiency was made using relatively
primative lubricants, before the commercial availability of molybdenum
disulphide in the early 60's. *It's nearly 50 years, you'd have
thought it might have caught on. *With this wonder lube and a roller
chain constructed with utmost accuracy, the drivechain would likely
have a loss of less than 0.25% making it comparable to wheel bearing
efficiency. *The biggest mechanical drag will then likely be the
roller bearings in the modern snazzy pedals. *Of course, they can also
be treated. *Next stop, lubrication nipples for the knees.

I think that you are attributing more to Moly-disulphide lubrication
then it deserves. The most common attribute I can find listed for it
is that it withstands high temperatures better then some other
additives. Certainly when I was working on airplanes, courtesy of the
U.S.A.F. it was commonly used as an anti-seize on jet engines.

True it has the ability to plate surfaces which results in improved
lubrication but whether it can improve chain efficiency by an
additional 1+ percent may well be less then accurate.

The big benefit of plating surfaces is to reduce startup wear on
engines that rely on oil pressure to maintain bearing clearance.
Seems like that would work pretty well on a roller chain as well.

I wasn't trying to say that molybdenum-disulfide isn't good (although
I have my doubts) but that it is going to be rather difficult to
improve a chain running at 98 - 99% efficiency that last 1 - 2%.

But if the benefit is improved wear, it isn't the efficiency when new
that's going to improve.
The efficiency gain will be much further along the chain's life, which
should itself be extended.

So not a lot of difference (if any) for the pros out there, but for
the rest of us, longer life and less degradation.

I'm not even sure whether sloshing M-D on the chain is going to make
an appreciable difference in chain wear. The design of bicycle chains
quite simply ignores the question of chain life in favor of number of
gears. My guess is that if you could run the chain in a clean
environment any reasonable lubrication system would produce about the
same chain life.

You obviously belong to the church of non-belief. Among such non-
belief is tyre treads don't work, tied and soldered spokes don't work
and wheel bearings run in oil is playing into the hands of industrial
oil suppliers. "Grease is where it's at." ;-)

I prefer to think that it is the Church of the Doubters until it is
proved successful. A conservative, I suppose.

Cheers,

John B.

On 6/30/2011 11:25 AM, thirty-six aka Trevor Jeffrey wrote:
You obviously belong to the church of non-belief. Among such non-
belief is tyre treads don't work, tied and soldered spokes don't work
and wheel bearings run in oil is playing into the hands of industrial
oil suppliers. "Grease is where it's at.";-)

I wish I could visit Trevor's home planet - it seems to be an
interesting place.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 08:56:24 -0700 (PDT), Dan O
wrote:

Ever worked on IBM Microchannel stuff? (I have a tone of it - people
were practically putting it out on the curb in favor of newer cheap
crap. Think Rolls Royce.)

I think of it as Rolls Royce dragging an anchor chain. Lots of
baggage came with MCA including a speed limited PS/2 bus, predatory
licensing agreements, unobtainable reference disks, etc. I started
with the Tandy 5000MC (386/20Mhz) running SCO Unix or Xenix (I forgot
which). About 4 years ago, I "sold" several boxes of MCA boards to
someone that promised to pay for shipping, but didn't.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/mca.jpg

...Imagine what a bicycle built to MIL specs would look like.
Another approach would be like the current low end laser printers.
When it breaks, throw it away. Make the principal components of the
bicycle expendable, and the maintenance problem evaporates.

Even chains? Even where it rains?

Sure. Maintenance would consist of replacement. Plastic cable
chains are probably cheaper to make than linked bicycle chains.
Lighter too. However, they won't last as long and will need regular
replacement. There are also some questions about safety, as in cable
breakage. If it gets dirty in the rain, hose it down or replace it.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

On Jul 1, 7:57*pm, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
*Plastic cable
chains are probably cheaper to make than linked bicycle chains.
Lighter too. *However, they won't last as long and will need regular
replacement. *There are also some questions about safety, as in cable
breakage. *If it gets dirty in the rain, hose it down or replace it.

I think you really need to buy some of that stuff and try it out.
Report back, please.

- Frank Krygowski

On Jul 1, 12:54*am, john B. wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 09:25:10 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six



wrote:
On Jun 27, 1:00 am, john B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:55:47 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

john B. considered Sun, 26 Jun 2011 18:29:36
+0700 the perfect time to write:

On Sun, 26 Jun 2011 06:32:06 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

john B. considered Sun, 26 Jun 2011 07:55:27
+0700 the perfect time to write:

On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 07:18:16 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
wrote:

On Jun 25, 1:21 pm, john B. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 18:31:45 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six

I am convinced that the roller chain is unlikely to be superceded for
everyday bicycle use in the forseable future.
Wire rope transmissionsdo have the advantage of simplifying designs of
folding bikes, but outside this market of being able to carry a bike
on a train as hand luggage and keep your trousers clean, they are
unlikely to catch on.

You could go to a Synchronous belt if you don't alter the chain line.
Gates says up to 99% efficient. In contrast to a normal bicycle chain
at around 98 percent.

The 98% claim in roller chain efficiency was made using relatively
primative lubricants, before the commercial availability of molybdenum
disulphide in the early 60's. It's nearly 50 years, you'd have
thought it might have caught on. With this wonder lube and a roller
chain constructed with utmost accuracy, the drivechain would likely
have a loss of less than 0.25% making it comparable to wheel bearing
efficiency. The biggest mechanical drag will then likely be the
roller bearings in the modern snazzy pedals. Of course, they can also
be treated. Next stop, lubrication nipples for the knees.

I think that you are attributing more to Moly-disulphide lubrication
then it deserves. The most common attribute I can find listed for it
is that it withstands high temperatures better then some other
additives. Certainly when I was working on airplanes, courtesy of the
U.S.A.F. it was commonly used as an anti-seize on jet engines.

True it has the ability to plate surfaces which results in improved
lubrication but whether it can improve chain efficiency by an
additional 1+ percent may well be less then accurate.

The big benefit of plating surfaces is to reduce startup wear on
engines that rely on oil pressure to maintain bearing clearance.
Seems like that would work pretty well on a roller chain as well.

I wasn't trying to say that molybdenum-disulfide isn't good (although
I have my doubts) but that it is going to be rather difficult to
improve a chain running at 98 - 99% efficiency that last 1 - 2%.

But if the benefit is improved wear, it isn't the efficiency when new
that's going to improve.
The efficiency gain will be much further along the chain's life, which
should itself be extended.

So not a lot of difference (if any) for the pros out there, but for
the rest of us, longer life and less degradation.

I'm not even sure whether sloshing M-D on the chain is going to make
an appreciable difference in chain wear. The design of bicycle chains
quite simply ignores the question of chain life in favor of number of
gears. My guess is that if you could run the chain in a clean
environment any reasonable lubrication system would produce about the
same chain life.

You obviously belong to the church of non-belief. *Among such non-
belief is tyre treads don't work, tied and soldered spokes don't work
and wheel bearings run in oil is playing into the hands of industrial
oil suppliers. *"Grease is where it's at." *;-)

I prefer to think that it is the Church of the Doubters until it is
proved successful. A conservative, I suppose.

Cheers,

John B.

Did Shimano ever make an everlasting chain or do you think that there
is likely some treatment I have performed to it which has made it wear
exceptionally slowly (if at all)? The model is a 600EX from about
1987 and the most likely occurance to enable it's long service life
(something over 30000 miles) is that it has been nourished by
molybdenum disulphide folowing an initial wear-in period. It has also
received hot oil treatment and wax and oiled with castor oil as well
as normal mineral based cycle oil and chain spray grease, but none of
these things I think are documented to give the exceptional reduced
wear properties experienced.
I first encountered the substance as the engine oil additive,
Molyslip and it was in this form with a little additional mineral oil
I applied it to my chain. I have used it in car engines and it does
help cranking speeds on cold startup, requiring minimal or no choke in
freezing conditions. It does improve acceleration times under part
and full throttle openings and in does increase top speeds. As well
as this it is normal to experience a 10% improvement in fuel economy.
These gains have been found when adding the moly to semi-synthetic
engine lubricants. The advantage over using 100% synthetic is unknown
as yet.

On Fri, 1 Jul 2011 23:40:39 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
wrote:

I first encountered the substance as the engine oil additive,
Molyslip and it was in this form with a little additional mineral oil
I applied it to my chain.

Some additive sources and references on Moly additives.
http://www.molyslip.com
http://www.superfrictionfighter.com
http://www.thegasmisers.com/additives.htm
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/moly-basics/
http://www.liqui-moly.de
--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558