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Flat repair



 
 
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  #61  
Old August 13th 18, 11:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
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Posts: 1,546
Default Flat repair

jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/11/2018 10:07 PM, Andy wrote:

Most of my flats show up when I am at home where it's easy to fix.

I should care a spare.


Absolutely! A spare tube, plus a patch kit in case of a two-flat
disaster day. And whatever tools are necessary to make the change.

Should I get one of those mini pumps or is one of those CO2 rigs worth it?


I remember one club ride where several CO2 rigs failed or were wasted -
for example, by trying to fill a tube that still had a hole in it. The
victim eventually borrowed my full sized frame pump to get on the road
again.

So I'd prefer a pump over CO2. And I prefer a full sized frame pump over
a mini pump, since the typical mini pump requires hundreds of strokes to
inflate a tire.

But others disagree, of course. YMMV.


A good C02 inflator with a good tube is very fast and effective. I'm a
convert, but I still take a mini-pump as a back-up, and on my commuter I
have a Topeak Road Morph which does a better job than my old Zefal and
has a built in gauge. Frame shape makes it difficult to use a full sized
frame pump on most of my bikes, and I now prefer hoses to pump-end heads.

-- Jay Beattie.


Yeah I hated losing my Zefal when I got the first Tarmac.
I use CO2 now but carry a small frame pump. It can be used in a pinch to
get me going but it’s some work.
The pump is helpful to put a couple pounds of air in the tube to form it
for installation though.

I don’t get many flats though. Maybe one or two a season. 1 so far this
season. Maybe people need better tires with flat protection?

--
duane
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  #62  
Old August 13th 18, 07:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Default Flat repair

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 11:14:13 PM UTC-7, Andy wrote:
I had to repair a flat. Have some questions.

Is it best to apply patch to a completly flat tube?

I found a small copper wire in tire.

Is there something to minimize what can puncture tire?

Thanks


I am rather amazed at the reticence of bicyclists to use tubeless tires. Every other vehicle from commercial trucks to Indy racers use tubeless tires as a matter of course and have for decades. I warrant that most of you have never seen a car tire that uses a tube.

Can you people explain to me why you would buy innertubes, flat repair kits and various methods of inflating flatted tires when you don't have to flat a tire and only need to inflate it if you happen to get a large enough hole in it release sufficient air to soften the tire before it seals again? Furthermore tubeless tires have lower rolling resistance than either a normal clincher or even a tubular.

Bicycle tires have very little air in them so it doesn't take much of a hole to drain the air out. But the sealants available seal the tire so fast that virtually no air is lost.

Now, Mavic has studied the question very carefully and designed rims and tubeless tires that fit together with just the correct tightness. But my experience with Fulcrum/Campy rims and Michelin tires shows that this is not a difficult technology.

Now according to Mavic the difference between a tire that is too loose and will blow off a rim too easily and one that will be too difficult to install is only one mm in diameter. But typically this NOT a hard standard to achieve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOi4czjB1No
  #63  
Old August 13th 18, 07:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Flat repair

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 11:15:17 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 11:14:13 PM UTC-7, Andy wrote:
I had to repair a flat. Have some questions.

Is it best to apply patch to a completly flat tube?

I found a small copper wire in tire.

Is there something to minimize what can puncture tire?

Thanks


I am rather amazed at the reticence of bicyclists to use tubeless tires. Every other vehicle from commercial trucks to Indy racers use tubeless tires as a matter of course and have for decades. I warrant that most of you have never seen a car tire that uses a tube.

Can you people explain to me why you would buy innertubes, flat repair kits and various methods of inflating flatted tires when you don't have to flat a tire and only need to inflate it if you happen to get a large enough hole in it release sufficient air to soften the tire before it seals again? Furthermore tubeless tires have lower rolling resistance than either a normal clincher or even a tubular.

Bicycle tires have very little air in them so it doesn't take much of a hole to drain the air out. But the sealants available seal the tire so fast that virtually no air is lost.

Now, Mavic has studied the question very carefully and designed rims and tubeless tires that fit together with just the correct tightness. But my experience with Fulcrum/Campy rims and Michelin tires shows that this is not a difficult technology.

Now according to Mavic the difference between a tire that is too loose and will blow off a rim too easily and one that will be too difficult to install is only one mm in diameter. But typically this NOT a hard standard to achieve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOi4czjB1No


Most people aren't going to run out and replace their wheels. There are other reasons for sticking with tubes. https://janheine.wordpress.com/2017/...road-tubeless/

With that said, I fully intend to give tubeless a whirl on some OE wheels that are tubeless ready or compatible or whatever the terminology. More stuff to buy! More goopy substances! What's not to like about that?

-- Jay Beattie.
  #64  
Old August 13th 18, 08:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 824
Default Flat repair

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 8:15:17 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 11:14:13 PM UTC-7, Andy wrote:
I had to repair a flat. Have some questions.

Is it best to apply patch to a completly flat tube?

I found a small copper wire in tire.

Is there something to minimize what can puncture tire?

Thanks


I am rather amazed at the reticence of bicyclists to use tubeless tires. Every other vehicle from commercial trucks to Indy racers use tubeless tires as a matter of course and have for decades. I warrant that most of you have never seen a car tire that uses a tube.

Can you people explain to me why you would buy innertubes, flat repair kits and various methods of inflating flatted tires when you don't have to flat a tire and only need to inflate it if you happen to get a large enough hole in it release sufficient air to soften the tire before it seals again? Furthermore tubeless tires have lower rolling resistance than either a normal clincher or even a tubular.

Bicycle tires have very little air in them so it doesn't take much of a hole to drain the air out. But the sealants available seal the tire so fast that virtually no air is lost.

Now, Mavic has studied the question very carefully and designed rims and tubeless tires that fit together with just the correct tightness. But my experience with Fulcrum/Campy rims and Michelin tires shows that this is not a difficult technology.

Now according to Mavic the difference between a tire that is too loose and will blow off a rim too easily and one that will be too difficult to install is only one mm in diameter. But typically this NOT a hard standard to achieve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOi4czjB1No


I think everyone that uses tubeless tires is enthousiastic about them until the moment they get a cut in their tire that the sealant can’t close. That is the moment it gets messy. Another wake up call is the moment they realized that they had to renew the sealant. Most people who take care of their equipment don’t get that many flats (me less than 5 a year).. In that case a traditional setup is less of a hassle. Really. I have tubeless ready wheelset (came with the bike, didn't' used them yet) No way I going to mess with sealant and the pain of initial mounting of the tire. YMMV of course, just answering your question.

Lou
  #65  
Old August 13th 18, 09:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Flat repair

On 8/13/2018 1:36 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 11:15:17 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 11:14:13 PM UTC-7, Andy wrote:
I had to repair a flat. Have some questions.

Is it best to apply patch to a completly flat tube?

I found a small copper wire in tire.

Is there something to minimize what can puncture tire?

Thanks


I am rather amazed at the reticence of bicyclists to use tubeless tires. Every other vehicle from commercial trucks to Indy racers use tubeless tires as a matter of course and have for decades. I warrant that most of you have never seen a car tire that uses a tube.

Can you people explain to me why you would buy innertubes, flat repair kits and various methods of inflating flatted tires when you don't have to flat a tire and only need to inflate it if you happen to get a large enough hole in it release sufficient air to soften the tire before it seals again? Furthermore tubeless tires have lower rolling resistance than either a normal clincher or even a tubular.

Bicycle tires have very little air in them so it doesn't take much of a hole to drain the air out. But the sealants available seal the tire so fast that virtually no air is lost.

Now, Mavic has studied the question very carefully and designed rims and tubeless tires that fit together with just the correct tightness. But my experience with Fulcrum/Campy rims and Michelin tires shows that this is not a difficult technology.

Now according to Mavic the difference between a tire that is too loose and will blow off a rim too easily and one that will be too difficult to install is only one mm in diameter. But typically this NOT a hard standard to achieve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOi4czjB1No


Most people aren't going to run out and replace their wheels. There are other reasons for sticking with tubes. https://janheine.wordpress.com/2017/...road-tubeless/

With that said, I fully intend to give tubeless a whirl on some OE wheels that are tubeless ready or compatible or whatever the terminology. More stuff to buy! More goopy substances! What's not to like about that?

-- Jay Beattie.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3BPzTXYlKI


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #66  
Old August 13th 18, 10:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
Default Flat repair

On 8/9/2018 11:14 PM, Andy wrote:
I had to repair a flat. Have some questions.

Is it best to apply patch to a completly flat tube?


No. Put a little air in the tube. Use the proper size patch, i.e. a
large patch on a small width tire is a bad idea. Rema makes patch kits
with different size patches http://www.rematiptop.com/parts.php?sid=4.

I found a small copper wire in tire.

Is there something to minimize what can puncture tire?


It's better to use a quality flat-resistant tire, like the Schwalbe
Marathon Plus
https://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/road_tires/Marathon_Plus_HS440,
than to use a tire liner. There's a weight penalty for these tires, but
unless you're racing, the time you'll save in fixing flats is probably
more than the time you'll lose from the greater weight.

Avoid Mr. Tuffy liners at all costs. If you do use liners, use a thicker
inner tube because the liners tend to cause flats where the two ends meet.
  #68  
Old August 13th 18, 11:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,261
Default Flat repair

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:03:25 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On 14/08/18 04:15, wrote:
Can you people explain to me why you would buy innertubes, flat repair kits and various methods of inflating flatted tires when you don't have to flat a tire and only need to inflate it if you happen to get a large enough hole in it release sufficient air to soften the tire before it seals again?


1. Lock-in. For the ignorant, and you have to be ignorant not to have
noticed how manufacturers try to lock customers into their product by
making it incompatible with products from other manufacturers. Heck,
they even make their new products incompatible with their own products.

2. Performance. I always laugh at claims of superior performance when
they relie on results from very narrow test conditions.

3. Reliability; tubeless setup fails once. Tube and tyre need to fail
twice to have you walking.


1. Exactly HOW are manufacturers trying to "lock us in" to their product when virtually every new wheels and every new tire tubeless compatible?

2. If you have ever run tests on mechanical components in your life than you know that it is impossible to test for every condition. What we have seen is testing by at least a half dozen source from tire manufacturers to Cycling News testing the rolling resistance of narrow to wide tires and they all report the same outcome - the rougher the roads the less rolling resistance wider tires at lower pressures have compared to narrower higher pressure tires. That is not "very narrow test conditions". The last video showed rolling resistance of the three different TYPES of tires. This was not meant to give precise measurements but relative differences. And as should come as not surprise to anyone capable of engineering, the tire that has the least intercomponent friction the less the relative rolling resistance. Again, these do nothing more than burst myths that have been surrounding bicycle tires for a long time. Anyone that went from the older 18 mm tires at 160 psi to 23 mm tires at 110 psi could and did report this.

3. Tubeless tires cannot fail from small goathead thorns or wires left on the road by wearing through steel belted tires that give you a tube tire flat. A dramatic cut in the tire will destroy them BOTH equally.

Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump because it seems romantic to you.

You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue, don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to their products"
or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a motorcycles.
  #69  
Old August 14th 18, 01:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Flat repair

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:49:02 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 3:03:25 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On 14/08/18 04:15, wrote:
Can you people explain to me why you would buy innertubes, flat repair kits and various methods of inflating flatted tires when you don't have to flat a tire and only need to inflate it if you happen to get a large enough hole in it release sufficient air to soften the tire before it seals again?


1. Lock-in. For the ignorant, and you have to be ignorant not to have
noticed how manufacturers try to lock customers into their product by
making it incompatible with products from other manufacturers. Heck,
they even make their new products incompatible with their own products.

2. Performance. I always laugh at claims of superior performance when
they relie on results from very narrow test conditions.

3. Reliability; tubeless setup fails once. Tube and tyre need to fail
twice to have you walking.


1. Exactly HOW are manufacturers trying to "lock us in" to their product when virtually every new wheels and every new tire tubeless compatible?

2. If you have ever run tests on mechanical components in your life than you know that it is impossible to test for every condition. What we have seen is testing by at least a half dozen source from tire manufacturers to Cycling News testing the rolling resistance of narrow to wide tires and they all report the same outcome - the rougher the roads the less rolling resistance wider tires at lower pressures have compared to narrower higher pressure tires. That is not "very narrow test conditions". The last video showed rolling resistance of the three different TYPES of tires. This was not meant to give precise measurements but relative differences. And as should come as not surprise to anyone capable of engineering, the tire that has the least intercomponent friction the less the relative rolling resistance. Again, these do nothing more than burst myths that have been surrounding bicycle tires for a long time. Anyone that went from the older 18 mm tires at 160 psi to 23 mm tires at 110 psi could and did report this.

3. Tubeless tires cannot fail from small goathead thorns or wires left on the road by wearing through steel belted tires that give you a tube tire flat. A dramatic cut in the tire will destroy them BOTH equally.

Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump because it seems romantic to you.

You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue, don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to their products"
or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a motorcycles.


What do you do if a tubeless tire goes belly-up on a ride? Nothing is indestructible. I would still carry a tube and a pump and/or a CO2 cartridge even if I was on tubeless.

-- Jay Beattie.
 




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