Campy B.B. compatibility

On Sunday, August 18, 2019 at 2:48:13 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/18/2019 2:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, August 18, 2019 at 12:02:07 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, August 18, 2019 at 12:21:53 PM UTC-5, daleb wrote:
I currently have a Campy centaur 115.5mm bottom bracket on my ride that is built from slightly oversized titanium tubing (Habanero) with Centaur double cranks. Would a Phil 110.5mm work on this bike? 115.5mm PW's are hard to come by.
Thanks.

I'd take Andy's comments into consideration. But, if you have a 115.5mm Campagnolo bottom bracket, why not just put another one in if you want. Why F around with Phil Wood. I know some people worship their crap. I'm not one of them. See links below. Just use Campagnolo bottom brackets with Campagnolo cranksets. Life is easier and better if you don't make up and imagine fictitious problems.

https://planetcyclery.com/campagnolo...SABEgL2DPD_BwE
$23.95 for Veloce 115.5mm. This seems real simple doesn't it.


https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/campagnolo-centaur-tapered-bottom-bracket/rp-prod165441?gs=1&sku=sku611166&pgrid=54137515364&pt aid=pla-431312527100&utm_source=google&utm_term=&utm_campa ign=PLA+All+Products&utm_medium=base&utm_content=m kwid|sVYur0OM1_dc|pcrid|253659801802|pkw||pmt||prd |611166US&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI04Dqo4uN5AIVlR-tBh18SgduEAQYAyABEgJG_fD_BwE
Both Centaur lengths. 111 and 115. Get whatever size you want. Same length, or shorter if you want to reduce Q factor. Campagnolo brand, so you know it works right.

I agree with you one Phil Wood. I have never seen a single advantage of them. Take the headset for example - you could buy a half dozen FSA's or the like for the same price and while the Phil Wood would last five lifetimes of the bike the FSA's would last just one lifetime. Isn't that enough?


p.s. spindle section for square taper :
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/3SPINDLE.JPG

The rightmost section is the original format for the first
French aluminum cranks before the war. Campagnolo adopted
that section (with shorter spindle length) to their first
Record aluminum crank, c.1960. It was the standard format
for almost all quality cranks[1] including Shimano Dura Ace,
Suntour and Sugino products until just a few years ago.

The same angle, same taper, different section[2] shown
center (smaller at the end) dominated melt-forged cranks
such as Sugino Maxy and Suntour VX starting around 1970. It
became the dominant inexpensive crank spindle format but was
never used for premium product (Campagnolo, Dura Ace, Sugino
75 etc).

For curious readers, the leftmost spindle in image is a
different steeper angle taper used for obsolete sandcast
aluminum crank arms which were a brief effort before
thixoform became ubiquitously inexpensive.

[1] The list is long. The original TA, then Stronglight,
Williams, Zeus, Favorit, Saavedra, GPM, Ofmega, SR Royal,
Nervar and private labels of many of those as well.

[2] variously with nut or with bolt, same fit.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Well, I agree with you about Record cranks. But I have four different size Campy tapered bottom brackets down in the garage and just went and looked at them.The 115.5's are marked Centaur and were used for the older triples. I know for a fact that the DuraAce crank would not fit properly on the Campy tapers since I tried it. They wouldn't go down on the taper and hung far out not fully on the taper. All of these BB plus one of the old ball and race kind all have identical tapers.

I haven't used the old fashion BB's for a long time now so I don't know why I still have them.

On Sunday, August 18, 2019 at 4:08:53 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/18/2019 2:37 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, August 18, 2019 at 10:43:51 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/18/2019 12:21 PM, daleb wrote:
I currently have a Campy centaur 115.5mm bottom bracket on my ride that is built from slightly oversized titanium tubing (Habanero) with Centaur double cranks. Would a Phil 110.5mm work on this bike? 115.5mm PW's are hard to come by.
Thanks.


Centaur double spec is 111mm, the alternate wide chainline
option was 115.5.

You might measure the chainline and check that your front
changer is able to move 2mm+ farther inside before buying
that 110. Front changer adjustment range is your likely
sticking point in that application and the most likely
reason the builder used the 115.5 spindle.

Yes, Phil can be shifted laterally but buying the right part
is so much better than fudging later since they all cost the
same.

The 115 BB was for the Campy Triple. The narrower version was for the double. But the Campy Taper was unique. I suppose he could be talking about the ISO BB which is a toothed arrangement but that wasn't clear.


That's not right.

Both double and triple MIR, VEL DAY and CEN arms run on the
same ACS/ACH spindle length, viz., 111mm with optional
115.5mm for fat frame tubes.

(Record Triple was a completely different and unrelated
forging with 109mm spindle vs 103mm for the Record and
Chorus doubles)

Crank arm designers in the modern world have amazing
latitude in arm shape to keep constant chainline with
shorter and shorter spindles:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/curve.jpg

In The Olden Days arms were flat-faced and a typical triple
spindle was 123~125mm.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

That is my understanding, also. As this will be my third Veloce/Centaur BB replacement on this bike, I was was just wondering if the Phil BB would be worth the trouble.

On 8/18/2019 8:13 PM, daleb wrote:
On Sunday, August 18, 2019 at 4:08:53 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/18/2019 2:37 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, August 18, 2019 at 10:43:51 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/18/2019 12:21 PM, daleb wrote:
I currently have a Campy centaur 115.5mm bottom bracket on my ride that is built from slightly oversized titanium tubing (Habanero) with Centaur double cranks. Would a Phil 110.5mm work on this bike? 115.5mm PW's are hard to come by.
Thanks.


Centaur double spec is 111mm, the alternate wide chainline
option was 115.5.

You might measure the chainline and check that your front
changer is able to move 2mm+ farther inside before buying
that 110. Front changer adjustment range is your likely
sticking point in that application and the most likely
reason the builder used the 115.5 spindle.

Yes, Phil can be shifted laterally but buying the right part
is so much better than fudging later since they all cost the
same.

The 115 BB was for the Campy Triple. The narrower version was for the double. But the Campy Taper was unique. I suppose he could be talking about the ISO BB which is a toothed arrangement but that wasn't clear.


That's not right.

Both double and triple MIR, VEL DAY and CEN arms run on the
same ACS/ACH spindle length, viz., 111mm with optional
115.5mm for fat frame tubes.

(Record Triple was a completely different and unrelated
forging with 109mm spindle vs 103mm for the Record and
Chorus doubles)

Crank arm designers in the modern world have amazing
latitude in arm shape to keep constant chainline with
shorter and shorter spindles:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/curve.jpg

In The Olden Days arms were flat-faced and a typical triple
spindle was 123~125mm.


That is my understanding, also. As this will be my third Veloce/Centaur BB replacement on this bike, I was was just wondering if the Phil BB would be worth the trouble.


What's the failure mode?

Since these units were made about ten years ago, popping off
the seals to fill with grease might be a good installation
step if you see bearing contamination on yours.

Phil products are first rate, no complaints whatsoever and
we've seen absolutely mind-boggling service histories[1].
Phil of course have some measurable failure rate but it's
niggling compared to everyone else. For People Who Break
Things (you know who you are) Phil can be a cost effective
reliable alternate.


[1] Two customers went from Point Barrow to Tierra del Fuego
on a Phil equipped Santana tandem over 2-1/2 years. They
consumed three 48-spoke rims on the same Phil cassette hub
which was fine, having done everything including riding
mostly submerged for about a week in the Amazon.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, August 18, 2019 at 6:53:46 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/18/2019 8:13 PM, daleb wrote:
On Sunday, August 18, 2019 at 4:08:53 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/18/2019 2:37 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, August 18, 2019 at 10:43:51 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/18/2019 12:21 PM, daleb wrote:
I currently have a Campy centaur 115.5mm bottom bracket on my ride that is built from slightly oversized titanium tubing (Habanero) with Centaur double cranks. Would a Phil 110.5mm work on this bike? 115.5mm PW's are hard to come by.
Thanks.


Centaur double spec is 111mm, the alternate wide chainline
option was 115.5.

You might measure the chainline and check that your front
changer is able to move 2mm+ farther inside before buying
that 110. Front changer adjustment range is your likely
sticking point in that application and the most likely
reason the builder used the 115.5 spindle.

Yes, Phil can be shifted laterally but buying the right part
is so much better than fudging later since they all cost the
same.

The 115 BB was for the Campy Triple. The narrower version was for the double. But the Campy Taper was unique. I suppose he could be talking about the ISO BB which is a toothed arrangement but that wasn't clear.


That's not right.

Both double and triple MIR, VEL DAY and CEN arms run on the
same ACS/ACH spindle length, viz., 111mm with optional
115.5mm for fat frame tubes.

(Record Triple was a completely different and unrelated
forging with 109mm spindle vs 103mm for the Record and
Chorus doubles)

Crank arm designers in the modern world have amazing
latitude in arm shape to keep constant chainline with
shorter and shorter spindles:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/curve.jpg

In The Olden Days arms were flat-faced and a typical triple
spindle was 123~125mm.


That is my understanding, also. As this will be my third Veloce/Centaur BB replacement on this bike, I was was just wondering if the Phil BB would be worth the trouble.


What's the failure mode?

Since these units were made about ten years ago, popping off
the seals to fill with grease might be a good installation
step if you see bearing contamination on yours.

Phil products are first rate, no complaints whatsoever and
we've seen absolutely mind-boggling service histories[1].
Phil of course have some measurable failure rate but it's
niggling compared to everyone else. For People Who Break
Things (you know who you are) Phil can be a cost effective
reliable alternate.


[1] Two customers went from Point Barrow to Tierra del Fuego
on a Phil equipped Santana tandem over 2-1/2 years. They
consumed three 48-spoke rims on the same Phil cassette hub
which was fine, having done everything including riding
mostly submerged for about a week in the Amazon.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

How so you wear out a BB? I can't remember ever doing so. Of course with my memory I can't remember if I took my pills this morning.

On Sunday, August 18, 2019 at 5:45:05 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:

I know for a fact that the DuraAce crank would not fit properly on the Campy tapers since I tried it.


Every person who has any mechanical bicycle aptitude knows this. This simple, widely known fact is not under discussion in this thread. Campagnolo uses ISO (International Standards Organization?) taper. Shimano uses JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) taper. They both have the same angle of taper and probably length of taper. But I think the JIS starts as a bigger taper size than the ISO.

On Sunday, August 18, 2019 at 6:53:46 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/18/2019 8:13 PM, daleb wrote:
On Sunday, August 18, 2019 at 4:08:53 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/18/2019 2:37 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, August 18, 2019 at 10:43:51 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/18/2019 12:21 PM, daleb wrote:
I currently have a Campy centaur 115.5mm bottom bracket on my ride that is built from slightly oversized titanium tubing (Habanero) with Centaur double cranks. Would a Phil 110.5mm work on this bike? 115.5mm PW's are hard to come by.
Thanks.


Centaur double spec is 111mm, the alternate wide chainline
option was 115.5.

You might measure the chainline and check that your front
changer is able to move 2mm+ farther inside before buying
that 110. Front changer adjustment range is your likely
sticking point in that application and the most likely
reason the builder used the 115.5 spindle.

Yes, Phil can be shifted laterally but buying the right part
is so much better than fudging later since they all cost the
same.

The 115 BB was for the Campy Triple. The narrower version was for the double. But the Campy Taper was unique. I suppose he could be talking about the ISO BB which is a toothed arrangement but that wasn't clear.


That's not right.

Both double and triple MIR, VEL DAY and CEN arms run on the
same ACS/ACH spindle length, viz., 111mm with optional
115.5mm for fat frame tubes.

(Record Triple was a completely different and unrelated
forging with 109mm spindle vs 103mm for the Record and
Chorus doubles)

Crank arm designers in the modern world have amazing
latitude in arm shape to keep constant chainline with
shorter and shorter spindles:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/curve.jpg

In The Olden Days arms were flat-faced and a typical triple
spindle was 123~125mm.


That is my understanding, also. As this will be my third Veloce/Centaur BB replacement on this bike, I was was just wondering if the Phil BB would be worth the trouble.


What's the failure mode?

Since these units were made about ten years ago, popping off
the seals to fill with grease might be a good installation
step if you see bearing contamination on yours.

Phil products are first rate, no complaints whatsoever and
we've seen absolutely mind-boggling service histories[1].
Phil of course have some measurable failure rate but it's
niggling compared to everyone else. For People Who Break
Things (you know who you are) Phil can be a cost effective
reliable alternate.


[1] Two customers went from Point Barrow to Tierra del Fuego
on a Phil equipped Santana tandem over 2-1/2 years. They
consumed three 48-spoke rims on the same Phil cassette hub
which was fine, having done everything including riding
mostly submerged for about a week in the Amazon.

O.K., I've told this story, but I'm going to tell it again. I was over at Phil's shop on W. Julian dealing with some equipment issue in 1981 after returning from my ride across the US. I was telling him about the trip and said that it was a tribute to his equipment. He looks up at me (he was seated, wheeling around in one of his Phil wheelchairs) and says "it's a tribute to spare time." He was smiling, but that was pretty classic Phil. I wonder what he would have said about someone squandering the time to ride from Point Barrow to Tierra del Fuego.

BTW, I got some of his first hubs second-hand in '75. I'm sure they're still going strong for the guy who stole that bike.


-- Jay Beattie.

On 8/19/2019 12:39 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, August 18, 2019 at 5:45:05 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:

I know for a fact that the DuraAce crank would not fit properly on the Campy tapers since I tried it.


Every person who has any mechanical bicycle aptitude knows this. This simple, widely known fact is not under discussion in this thread. Campagnolo uses ISO (International Standards Organization?) taper. Shimano uses JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) taper. They both have the same angle of taper and probably length of taper. But I think the JIS starts as a bigger taper size than the ISO.


New Dura Ace (BB7400) interchange perfectly with Campagnolo
1046/ 1046a BB sets.

The later taper section (JIS) is smaller.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 10:39:17 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Sunday, August 18, 2019 at 5:45:05 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:

I know for a fact that the DuraAce crank would not fit properly on the Campy tapers since I tried it.


Every person who has any mechanical bicycle aptitude knows this. This simple, widely known fact is not under discussion in this thread. Campagnolo uses ISO (International Standards Organization?) taper. Shimano uses JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) taper. They both have the same angle of taper and probably length of taper. But I think the JIS starts as a bigger taper size than the ISO.

They do fit together but one "sticks out more" :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

On 8/19/2019 2:35 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, August 18, 2019 at 6:53:46 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:

[1] Two customers went from Point Barrow to Tierra del Fuego
on a Phil equipped Santana tandem over 2-1/2 years. They
consumed three 48-spoke rims on the same Phil cassette hub
which was fine, having done everything including riding
mostly submerged for about a week in the Amazon.

O.K., I've told this story, but I'm going to tell it again. I was over at Phil's shop on W. Julian dealing with some equipment issue in 1981 after returning from my ride across the US. I was telling him about the trip and said that it was a tribute to his equipment. He looks up at me (he was seated, wheeling around in one of his Phil wheelchairs) and says "it's a tribute to spare time." He was smiling, but that was pretty classic Phil. I wonder what he would have said about someone squandering the time to ride from Point Barrow to Tierra del Fuego.

Hmm. I wouldn't do that ride, but I wouldn't call it squandering time.

Squandering time is doing things like watching Oprah.


--
- Frank Krygowski

I just bought a PW ISO/Campy taper 115mm for my TA Pro Vis V crankset. I wasn't really clear on if the TA was ISO or JIS