Lights = manufacturers moving to non-replaceable batteries

On Tue, 16 Feb 2016 14:53:27 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 2/14/2016 7:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 16:48:25 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

I'd like you to post POSITIVE proof that Cygolites are NOT made in the United States. Where's your proof that Cygolites are NOT made in the U.S.A.? Without POSITIVE proof of that, your statment is libel. Thus, where's your proof?
Cheers

The Cygolite package says "Engineered and Assembled in USA". What
that means is that the various components might have been made
offshore, but the final assembly is done in the states. It's a common
problem. This may help:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/07/25/googles-moto-x-theres-a-difference-between-made-in-america-and-assembled-in-america/

snip

It's very difficult for anything involving Li-Ion batteries, high-power
LEDs and various other electronic components to be "Made in the U.S.A."
You can screw around with the value you assign to various components of
the product in order to jack up the "domestic content" percentage, but
that's about it, so "Designed and Assembled in the U.S.A. is about the
best that you're going to get. Apple is doing that with the Mac Pro now.

Yep. That's especially difficult when there are no domestic component
manufacturers for some of the key parts. LiIon is a good example:
http://www.atp.nist.gov/eao/wp05-01/chapt2.htm
While the R&D and initial production runs are often done in the USA,
volume production soon moves offshore. However, I could probably
claim a high domestic content if the most expensive and custom parts
were all made in the USA. For example, in a bicycle light, the case,
mechanical parts, mounting hardware, trim, cosmetics, optics, and
possibly the PCB can all be domestically sourced, while the much
cheaper commodity parts can be sourced from offshore suppliers.

The screwed up part of selling bicycle accessories is that the shops
demand Keystone margins (100% mark-up) and you can't sell direct to
consumers at less than your MSRP.

"Fair Trade" is still alive and well.

Once you decide to sell through shops,
your retail has to be high enough so you don't lose money on every unit
you sell wholesale.

Welcome to product marketing. In this case, the product needs to find
a compatible buyer. The average impulse bicycle light buyer is NOT
going to buy a $400 light at an LBS which could exceed the cost of the
bicycle. The typical Amazon shopper is NOT going to buy a $400 light
unless he has previously seen, used, and evaluated the product. Each
price tier has it's corresponding typical customer.

It's also difficult to sell a single product for an odd reason. Most
product lines need a loss leader, that nobody buys, but which helps
sell the product. In automobiles, it's the overpriced bright red
convertible sports car on the showroom floor. Nobody ever buys one,
but it attracts the customers, who think of their youthful days of
wanting such a car, and end up buying something much cheaper and more
practical. Same in bicycle lighting. For example:
http://www.trailled.com/lighting/
Price range is from $350 to $1,185 for essentially the same product.
If one of the lower priced lights were advertised by itself, it would
never sell because few people can justify a $350 head light. However,
when compared to the sky high prices of the other lights, $350 looks
like a bargain. The $1,185 light is their red convertible and my
guess(tm) is they have yet to sell a single one.

While Barry can be a little too intense, the light he manufactures and
sells is quite good, and he doesn't gouge on spare batteries.

How can you tell it's good? Have you seen one in action? Have you
looked at his web page and found any test results, specifications,
details, reviews, or comparisons with other lights? I haven't and
suspect that he's not selling the light on technical merit. He's
selling a rather innovative lens system, his connection with NASA, and
sheer force of personality. That works very well for selling at
county fairs, kiosks, and shows. My guess(tm) is that if Barry
produced comparative specs and test data, the light would end up in
the middle of the pack with all the other innovative lighting products
with nothing to distinguish it from the others.

The light
would sell pretty well at around $125, but that would mean going 100%
direct and forgetting about selling through shops.

Agreed, if all he wants to do is sell direct. I don't know the market
well enough to determine if direct sales or retail is the optimum
approach. Each has their advantages. My best suggestion would be for
him to look at the prices of the nearest competitors selling similar
lights, and see how well they're doing in direct sales, mail odor, or
retail, and then try to steal some of their business. Unless the
light does something new and innovative, it's not going to create a
new market.




--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 2/17/2016 10:39 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 16 Feb 2016 14:53:27 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 2/14/2016 7:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 16:48:25 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

I'd like you to post POSITIVE proof that Cygolites are NOT made in the United States. Where's your proof that Cygolites are NOT made in the U.S.A.? Without POSITIVE proof of that, your statment is libel. Thus, where's your proof?
Cheers

The Cygolite package says "Engineered and Assembled in USA". What
that means is that the various components might have been made
offshore, but the final assembly is done in the states. It's a common
problem. This may help:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/07/25/googles-moto-x-theres-a-difference-between-made-in-america-and-assembled-in-america/

snip

It's very difficult for anything involving Li-Ion batteries, high-power
LEDs and various other electronic components to be "Made in the U.S.A."
You can screw around with the value you assign to various components of
the product in order to jack up the "domestic content" percentage, but
that's about it, so "Designed and Assembled in the U.S.A. is about the
best that you're going to get. Apple is doing that with the Mac Pro now.

Yep. That's especially difficult when there are no domestic component
manufacturers for some of the key parts. LiIon is a good example:
http://www.atp.nist.gov/eao/wp05-01/chapt2.htm
While the R&D and initial production runs are often done in the USA,
volume production soon moves offshore. However, I could probably
claim a high domestic content if the most expensive and custom parts
were all made in the USA. For example, in a bicycle light, the case,
mechanical parts, mounting hardware, trim, cosmetics, optics, and
possibly the PCB can all be domestically sourced, while the much
cheaper commodity parts can be sourced from offshore suppliers.

The screwed up part of selling bicycle accessories is that the shops
demand Keystone margins (100% mark-up) and you can't sell direct to
consumers at less than your MSRP.

"Fair Trade" is still alive and well.

Once you decide to sell through shops,
your retail has to be high enough so you don't lose money on every unit
you sell wholesale.

Welcome to product marketing. In this case, the product needs to find
a compatible buyer. The average impulse bicycle light buyer is NOT
going to buy a $400 light at an LBS which could exceed the cost of the
bicycle. The typical Amazon shopper is NOT going to buy a $400 light
unless he has previously seen, used, and evaluated the product. Each
price tier has it's corresponding typical customer.

It's also difficult to sell a single product for an odd reason. Most
product lines need a loss leader, that nobody buys, but which helps
sell the product. In automobiles, it's the overpriced bright red
convertible sports car on the showroom floor. Nobody ever buys one,
but it attracts the customers, who think of their youthful days of
wanting such a car, and end up buying something much cheaper and more
practical. Same in bicycle lighting. For example:
http://www.trailled.com/lighting/
Price range is from $350 to $1,185 for essentially the same product.
If one of the lower priced lights were advertised by itself, it would
never sell because few people can justify a $350 head light. However,
when compared to the sky high prices of the other lights, $350 looks
like a bargain. The $1,185 light is their red convertible and my
guess(tm) is they have yet to sell a single one.

While Barry can be a little too intense, the light he manufactures and
sells is quite good, and he doesn't gouge on spare batteries.

How can you tell it's good? Have you seen one in action? Have you
looked at his web page and found any test results, specifications,
details, reviews, or comparisons with other lights? I haven't and
suspect that he's not selling the light on technical merit. He's
selling a rather innovative lens system, his connection with NASA, and
sheer force of personality. That works very well for selling at
county fairs, kiosks, and shows. My guess(tm) is that if Barry
produced comparative specs and test data, the light would end up in
the middle of the pack with all the other innovative lighting products
with nothing to distinguish it from the others.

The light
would sell pretty well at around $125, but that would mean going 100%
direct and forgetting about selling through shops.

Agreed, if all he wants to do is sell direct. I don't know the market
well enough to determine if direct sales or retail is the optimum
approach. Each has their advantages. My best suggestion would be for
him to look at the prices of the nearest competitors selling similar
lights, and see how well they're doing in direct sales, mail odor, or
retail, and then try to steal some of their business. Unless the
light does something new and innovative, it's not going to create a
new market.





You never owned a red convertible? Really? Man, you haven't
lived.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/17/2016 8:39 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 16 Feb 2016 14:53:27 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 2/14/2016 7:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 14 Feb 2016 16:48:25 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

I'd like you to post POSITIVE proof that Cygolites are NOT made in the United States. Where's your proof that Cygolites are NOT made in the U.S.A.? Without POSITIVE proof of that, your statment is libel. Thus, where's your proof?
Cheers

The Cygolite package says "Engineered and Assembled in USA". What
that means is that the various components might have been made
offshore, but the final assembly is done in the states. It's a common
problem. This may help:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/07/25/googles-moto-x-theres-a-difference-between-made-in-america-and-assembled-in-america/

snip

It's very difficult for anything involving Li-Ion batteries, high-power
LEDs and various other electronic components to be "Made in the U.S.A."
You can screw around with the value you assign to various components of
the product in order to jack up the "domestic content" percentage, but
that's about it, so "Designed and Assembled in the U.S.A. is about the
best that you're going to get. Apple is doing that with the Mac Pro now.

Yep. That's especially difficult when there are no domestic component
manufacturers for some of the key parts. LiIon is a good example:
http://www.atp.nist.gov/eao/wp05-01/chapt2.htm
While the R&D and initial production runs are often done in the USA,
volume production soon moves offshore. However, I could probably
claim a high domestic content if the most expensive and custom parts
were all made in the USA. For example, in a bicycle light, the case,
mechanical parts, mounting hardware, trim, cosmetics, optics, and
possibly the PCB can all be domestically sourced, while the much
cheaper commodity parts can be sourced from offshore suppliers.

There was a domestic 18650 manufacturer in Florida at one time. They
took over the old GE NiCad business and were doing Li-Ion.

http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/electro-energy-receives-first-order-for-us-produced-18650-lithium-ion-batteries-nasdaq-eeei-846281.htm

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20150117/ARTICLES/150119704


The screwed up part of selling bicycle accessories is that the shops
demand Keystone margins (100% mark-up) and you can't sell direct to
consumers at less than your MSRP.

"Fair Trade" is still alive and well.

Yeah, WTF happened? It was gone for a long time, now you have MAP
(Minimum Advertised Price) to try to get around it. Of course it tends
to be a losing battle for most product categories and it enables
competitors to have a market for products with high margins and low cost
of entry.

Welcome to product marketing. In this case, the product needs to find
a compatible buyer. The average impulse bicycle light buyer is NOT
going to buy a $400 light at an LBS which could exceed the cost of the
bicycle. The typical Amazon shopper is NOT going to buy a $400 light
unless he has previously seen, used, and evaluated the product. Each
price tier has it's corresponding typical customer.

But the typical Amazon buyer may buy a $125 bicycle light that has a
four or five star rating and that is at least shipped by Amazon.

How can you tell it's good? Have you seen one in action?

Yes.

Agreed, if all he wants to do is sell direct. I don't know the market
well enough to determine if direct sales or retail is the optimum
approach. Each has their advantages. My best suggestion would be for
him to look at the prices of the nearest competitors selling similar
lights, and see how well they're doing in direct sales, mail odor, or
retail, and then try to steal some of their business. Unless the
light does something new and innovative, it's not going to create a
new market.

In my area, there are a lot of Magicshine and Magicshine clones out on
the road. They work acceptably well but have their issues. They tend to
use the cheapest, lowest-capacity, cells in their 4 cell battery packs.
The mount is not the greatest, though it works okay, at least on
straight bars. Would someone spending $69.99 on a MJ-808E spend $125 for
one of Barry's lights instead? Maybe, if they understood the advantages.

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 10:31:41 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
snip
Can the BC21R be charged while the light is on?

I don't know. I don't own the BC21R and don't see anything about this in Fenix's literatu

http://fenixlight.com/ProductMore.as...3#.VsSpiCArLC0

On Wed, 17 Feb 2016 09:45:58 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

Much interesting material there, but I simply called Cygo,
asked for the GM and got a prompt polite response that the
product components are USA sourced. I have no reason to
doubt him but there's no airtight evidence of that either.

Everyone lies, but that's ok because nobody listens.

"Complying with the Made in USA Standard"
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-made-usa-standard
Marketers and manufacturers that promote their products as
Made in USA must meet the "all or virtually all" standard.

"All or virtually all" means that all significant parts and
processing that go into the product must be of U.S. origin.
That is, the product should contain no or negligible foreign
content.

Buy American Act - Requires that a product be manufactured
in the U.S. of more than 50 percent U.S. parts to be
considered Made in USA for government procurement purposes."

I would have a problem with any bicycle light that contains a LiIon
battery as being 100% domestic content. To the best of my knowledge,
there are no domestic LiIon battery manufacturers. Most everything
else in the light, including the Cree XM-L2 LED, could be made in the
USA. Although the custom plastic parts carry a very low piece price,
if amortized tooling and othe front end expenses were included in the
parts costs, they might easily be the most expensive parts in the
light. Since the battery is a fairly small part of the component cost
of the light, "vitually all" is a suitable description.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 17 Feb 2016 10:54:32 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

You never owned a red convertible? Really? Man, you haven't
lived.

It wasn't mine but does riding around in an antique red fire engine
qualify? I also helped restore one, but never got to ride in it.

The local Ford dealer has a red convertable something in his showroom
window. It's been there for the 40 years I've been in the area. It
changes every few years to keep up with the latest model changes. I
asked about it (20 years ago) and discovered it's one of the few cars
on the lot that are 100% owned by Ford. At the time, the dealer said
that he never sold one although the sales people do sometimes take it
out for rides and events. Next time I'm near the lot, I'll ask and
take some photos.

BTW, red convertables allegedly attract police attention and expensive
speeding tickets. The paint also tends to fade in sunlight.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 2/17/2016 8:49 AM, sms wrote:


You don't see many bicycles with dynamo lights in the U.S., but when you
do, the rider almost always has a second light as well (either being
carried somewhere, or mounted on the handlebars).

More myths from Mr. Scharf. BTW, how would you know the rider has a
second light "carried somewhere"? Do you inspect riders' bike bags?

I have dynamo lights on five bikes. I have a giveaway coin cell pocket
light inside just one of their handlebar bags.

It's necessary for
three reasons:
1) you need a battery powered light for repairs

That can be handy. On the other hand, unless a person is riding way out
in the boondocks, there are usually street lamps not far away.

2) you need a higher power light for places where the output of a dynamo
light is not sufficient

This is the myth that drives the lumen wars. Good quality LED dynamo
headlamps produce enough road illumination for at _least_ 20 mph, and
that's better than the vast majority of bike headlights.

3) higher-power dynamo lights lack a flash mode and front flashers are
the new normal for daytime riding in the U.S., it would be exceedingly
foolish to be riding in the daytime without one because vehicles now
_expect_ bicyclists to have a flashing DRL.

Point number three is a combination of outright lie and absolute
bull****. Only a minuscule percentage of American cyclists use front
flashing lights in daytime. It's not "the new normal," simply because
it's not necessary. It's not even desirable.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/17/2016 12:12 PM, Gary Young wrote:
On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 10:31:41 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
snip
Can the BC21R be charged while the light is on?

I don't know. I don't own the BC21R and don't see anything about this in Fenix's literatu

http://fenixlight.com/ProductMore.as...3#.VsSpiCArLC0

I note that Fenix is attempting to address the problem of dazzling other
road users with round beams, i.e. beams not shaped properly for road use.

However, their beam shots seem to indicate too much brightness close to
the rider. It's better to have an even level of road illumination,
which means throwing fewer lumens down close in front of the rider, and
progressively more as distance from the rider increases, ending at a
horizontal cutoff for most of the beam. Bike headlights with better
optics do that, as do auto and motorcycle headlights.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2016-02-17 01:21, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 16.02.2016 um 16:31 schrieb sms:

A good system would be a dynamo hub charging a USB rechargeable light.
It could not keep up at high power, but at least during the day when
you're only using the strobe, it could be charging the battery from the
dynamo.

You can build a dynamo to USB adapter for about $10.

Certainly not.


If this was a design challenge with a large enough budget I would most
certainly take that on. As a product with sufficient volume it can be
built for under $10.

However, I don't see much of a market for it.


... You know that a dynamo is a 'fixed-power' source not a
'fixed-voltage' source and that therefore it is pretty non-trivial to
keep to the USB spec of 'exactly 5V, at most 500mA'.


It is not a fixed power source but a more or less constant current
source, provided the speed is above a threshold. You can get away need a
buck converter and a TVS that caps at some high voltage (tens of volts)
in case the load is pulled or is low. Powerful buck switcher ICs under
50 cents can be had from manufacturers such as Richtek, Diodes Inc. and
others.


You can buy a USB dynamo adapter for $100, ...


Way too expensive.


... and you can build one maybe
for $30 with the circuits downloadable from the internet, and I do not
see much benefit of such a system compared to using standard good
dynamo-driven LED lights: only meaningful use might be an additional
'high beam' that you charge during the day and might switch on at night
for fast downhill sections.


A dynamo-charger plus Li-Ion battery would make a lot of sense on a
bicycle but the industry is asleep at the wheel when it comes to stuff
like this. So we have to build our own systems.

I don't have a dynamo because they aren't popular here in the US and I
don't like to spoke up a new front wheel. So I have a 60 watt-hour
Li-Ion battery and this allows 5h rides with the front light on full
bore most of the time, much brighter than any dynamo light can ever be.
When I return home and park the bike in the garage it gets plugged in
and recharged. It has a charge port under the seat.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2/17/2016 11:47 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 17 Feb 2016 10:54:32 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

You never owned a red convertible? Really? Man, you haven't
lived.

It wasn't mine but does riding around in an antique red fire engine
qualify? I also helped restore one, but never got to ride in it.

The local Ford dealer has a red convertable something in his showroom
window. It's been there for the 40 years I've been in the area. It
changes every few years to keep up with the latest model changes. I
asked about it (20 years ago) and discovered it's one of the few cars
on the lot that are 100% owned by Ford. At the time, the dealer said
that he never sold one although the sales people do sometimes take it
out for rides and events. Next time I'm near the lot, I'll ask and
take some photos.

BTW, red convertables allegedly attract police attention and expensive
speeding tickets. The paint also tends to fade in sunlight.


Ask me how I know that.
Oh, and yes modern red pigments suck all around, it's the
one color that hasn't kept up in paint progress.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971