This will be a good decade for bicycling!

In article
,
Ron Wallenfang wrote:

Regarding the "We're good, everybody else is bad" generalization, may
I commend to your attention the Vatican 2 documents on ecumenism and
religious feedom, for official Catholic teaching on those subjects.

The official stance of the Catholic Church is that it is the one true
faith. Accept no substitutes. Heard lots of that stuff in CCD and
Catholic schools. The priests and nuns and brothers were not bashful
about their ecumenical superiority.

Regarding Islam, Andrew rightly went to the source and laid out many
citations to the Koran, to help focus the question: To what extent
do the foundational documents of Islam mandate the agenda of today's
radical Jahadists?? Or can there be a kinder, gentler Islam??

For that discussion to take place, good translations are necessary for
those of us who speak not the source languages. This seems to be
difficult at times. That's not unique to Islam and the Koran- the Bible
has had centuries of political editing, translation errors both direct
(source languages to English) and cumulative (source languages to
intermediary language(s) to English).

--
"I wear the cheese, it does not wear me."

In article
,
Ron Wallenfang wrote:

I don't think we disagree. The "clash of civilizations" has
described much of history since the 7th Century, though I haven't yet
read Huntington's book, and the Koranic verses you cite tell us why.

Only part of the story. All three of the Abrahamaic religions have
strong tendencies to expansionism which has shaped the cultures in which
they are embedded.

But I can dream. After all, much of the Old Testament is hardly more
tolerant; consider, for example the rejection by God of King Saul
because he failed to massacre the inhabitants of the lands he
conquered. But that material remains in the Bible, it is not
normative. As Vatican 2's Constitution on Divine Revelation puts it,
"These [OT] books, though they also contain some things which are
incomplete and temporary, ..........." (Par. 15) And rare indeed is
the Jew who sees accounts like these as models for conduct today.

Or, for that matter, the Jewish scholar who thinks that the material in
the Christian OT can be fruitfully interpreted literally.

I'm not ready to write off the chance for Islam to do likewise.
Which in no way reduces our need to act vigilantly today against
today's radical Jihadists.

Criminals are criminals.

--
"I wear the cheese, it does not wear me."

On Jan 7, 8:07*pm, "Edward Dolan" wrote:

.........why not
say something about the despicable nature of the Muslim religion.
Intelligence without courage is wasted.

I have got my eye on you and will expect only intelligent posts. See that
you do not disappoint me.


Sorry to disappoint you so quickly, Ed, but I'm not going there. The
following from the Second Vatican Council is not doctrinal, but sound
advice:

"Alhough in the course of the centuries many quarrels and hostilities
have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this ....Synod urges all
to forget the past and to strive sincerely for mutual understanding."

This was written in 1965, when miltant Islam had not yet emerged from
a comparatively quiescent period dating back roughly to the lifting
of the siege of Vienna in 1683. It looks rather naive today, but eras
come and eras go, and firm resistance to radical Islam (oh, and plus
some Divine assistance) could work wonders. Bush and Ratzinger cannot
match the achievement of Reagan and Wojtyla, but they had a tougher
not to crack, and it may yet happen.

Consider the case of Iraq's Grand Ayatollah Sistani. He's no minor
figure. Shia Islam is hierarchical and he's at the top of the heap in
Iraq. Without ever actively collaborating with the US, he was perhaps
the key to the comparative success of that operation. What he showed
was the ability to see the good as well as the bad in what was to him
the infidel invader, and to make the prudential judgments that
transformed Iraq from a brutal dictatorship run by Sunnis, to a
democracy largely dominated by Shi-ites.

We too need to be able to look behind the Islamic mask, and separate
the Sistanis and Sadats from the Khameinis and Ahmadinejads. While
we're not about to bike ride between Medinah and Mecca, maybe we can
hope someday to go from Beirut to Baghdad.

"Tim McNamara" wrote in message
...
[...]
I would say that Andrew's quoted synopsis of 4.89 unfairly characterized
the fuller texts, which refer to killing those converts to Islam who
revert to their old religion. Nasty enough, IMHO, but not an injunction
to randomly kill those who do not believe in Islam.

Most religions contain enough hateful, heinous material in their
scriptures- including Christianity and Judaism- that there's no reason
to modify the quotations to show this. But, because religions are
competitive (especially the Abrahamaic religions), it has been a popular
sport among threatened right-wing Christians to modify Islamic texts to
make them look bad (worse).

There are sociopaths wearing the clothes of all three of these
religions, claiming righteousness while laying waste to their enemies.

Tim McNamara is one of the most ignorant souls ever to infest these
newsgroups. But he is a Minnesotan and therefore entitled to his stupidity.
After all, Minnesota is the land of Humphrey, Mondale, E. McCarthy and other
assorted liberal idiots.

Not to be able to make discriminations marks you as a liberal asshole. Not
even Tom Sherman would make his mistake. Note how he lumps all religions
together - as though they are all the same. The Muslims of today are into
killing Christians and any others who get in their way. As far as I know, no
Christians or Jews are wantonly killing anyone.

I can only hope a Muslim Jihadist murders Tim McNamara and puts him out of
his misery. We do not need simpletons like him. He would be better off dead.
He has a treasonous nature.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"Tim McNamara" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Ron Wallenfang wrote:
[...]
I'm not ready to write off the chance for Islam to do likewise.
Which in no way reduces our need to act vigilantly today against
today's radical Jihadists.

Criminals are criminals.

Tim, you are too stupid to be believed. The Islamic Jihadists are not
criminals, they are warriors and the sooner we recognize it the better. We
are at war. What is there about this that you do not understand. My god,
your stupidity passes all understanding. I hope that one of these so called
"criminals" puts you out of your misery, you god damn dumb ****ing Minnesota
liberal asshole!

****ing Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"Tim McNamara" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Ron Wallenfang wrote:

Regarding the "We're good, everybody else is bad" generalization, may
I commend to your attention the Vatican 2 documents on ecumenism and
religious feedom, for official Catholic teaching on those subjects.

The official stance of the Catholic Church is that it is the one true
faith. Accept no substitutes. Heard lots of that stuff in CCD and
Catholic schools. The priests and nuns and brothers were not bashful
about their ecumenical superiority.

And rightfully so. Any other religions you want to compare it to?

Regarding Islam, Andrew rightly went to the source and laid out many
citations to the Koran, to help focus the question: To what extent
do the foundational documents of Islam mandate the agenda of today's
radical Jahadists?? Or can there be a kinder, gentler Islam??

For that discussion to take place, good translations are necessary for
those of us who speak not the source languages. This seems to be
difficult at times. That's not unique to Islam and the Koran- the Bible
has had centuries of political editing, translation errors both direct
(source languages to English) and cumulative (source languages to
intermediary language(s) to English).

Everyone understands the Koran perfectly. After all it was written by
simpletons for simpletons. But that does not mean Tim McNamara will ever be
able to understand it because he is worse than a simpleton. He is a moron.

Instead of wanting translations which are already numerous, it would be
better to study the history of Islam. It ranks right up there with the
Mongol conquests. Convert or die! That was the watch word of the Arabs as
they spread over the Middle East and North Africa.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"Ron Wallenfang" wrote in message
...
On Jan 7, 8:07 pm, "Edward Dolan" wrote:

.........why not
say something about the despicable nature of the Muslim religion.
Intelligence without courage is wasted.

I have got my eye on you and will expect only intelligent posts. See that
you do not disappoint me.


Sorry to disappoint you so quickly, Ed, but I'm not going there. The
following from the Second Vatican Council is not doctrinal, but sound
advice:

"Alhough in the course of the centuries many quarrels and hostilities
have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this ....Synod urges all
to forget the past and to strive sincerely for mutual understanding."

But the Muslims never forget. They are still mired in the Middle Ages.

This was written in 1965, when miltant Islam had not yet emerged from
a comparatively quiescent period dating back roughly to the lifting
of the siege of Vienna in 1683. It looks rather naive today, but eras
come and eras go, and firm resistance to radical Islam (oh, and plus
some Divine assistance) could work wonders. Bush and Ratzinger cannot
match the achievement of Reagan and Wojtyla, but they had a tougher
not to crack, and it may yet happen.

Yes, eras do indeed come and go, but in this age of weapons of mass
destruction it may well be the last age if we do not get our heads screwed
on straight.

Consider the case of Iraq's Grand Ayatollah Sistani. He's no minor
figure. Shia Islam is hierarchical and he's at the top of the heap in
Iraq. Without ever actively collaborating with the US, he was perhaps
the key to the comparative success of that operation. What he showed
was the ability to see the good as well as the bad in what was to him
the infidel invader, and to make the prudential judgments that
transformed Iraq from a brutal dictatorship run by Sunnis, to a
democracy largely dominated by Shi-ites.

Never trust a Muslim. They hate us and we would be smart to hate them back.

We too need to be able to look behind the Islamic mask, and separate
the Sistanis and Sadats from the Khameinis and Ahmadinejads. While
we're not about to bike ride between Medinah and Mecca, maybe we can
hope someday to go from Beirut to Baghdad.

The fact remains that we are at war with Islamic Jihadists. This is not the
time for amelioration and understanding. It is the time to kill the dirty
rotten *******s.

But I just plain do not like anyone of the Islamic religion. They treat
everyone not of their faith badly - and they always have. To equate Islam
with Christianity is a form of insanity.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

-snip koran-
AMuzi wrote:
-snip koran-
As any religious work, there are silly passages:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/gen...y/gn09_20.html
and then there are scary ones.

wrote:
Dude, I love this Lego Bible. With the proper Lego sets, any child can
become a bible scholar. Also, by redoing the landscapes and such you
can come up with multiple interpretations like Kierkegaard and
Kazantzakis.
One set could show Abraham actually killing his son and the other can
have Jesus marrying Mary Magdalene.

I have to credit Tom Sherman who first showed me that site.

My friend who attends torah study weekly finds it hilarious.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Edward Dolan wrote:
"Tom Sherman °_°" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:
"Tom Sherman °_°" wrote in message
...
[...]
Here is more realistic scenario - go to a $50K/year prep school, get a
legacy admission to an Ivy League school, get the best internships from
friends of the family, go from graduation into a management career
track, do well because you know all the right people, get paid millions
for doing a mediocre job of upper management.
Mr. Sherman reminds me of the poor little boy (a la Charles Dickens)
looking from the cold outside into a warm room at the well off and dying
of envy.
Mr. Dolan confuses envy with moral disgust. I would not want to be rich at
the price of immorally exploiting others.

No one in this day and age has "moral disgust", but as far as I can see
almost everyone has lots and lots of envy. Is Wal-Mart exploiting anyone? I
say no since they employ unskilled labor. Most of those folks who work at
Wal-Mart are lucky to have a job at all.

The labor market has been deliberately distorted to create unemployment.
The rich generally think unemployment is good, as it helps to control
the proletariat.

But why? They are few in number and have their own crosses to bear. Does
anyone here envy the life of Jack Kennedy for instance?

He had the choice of changing his name to John Doe and living a private
life. Most people in the world have very limited opportunities.

But you would not want to have lived his life even so. Nor would I.

It is a full time job for the rich to hang onto their wealth since others
are always trying to take it away from them. They must invest their
wealth and put it to work in the society at large. If they don't do that,
they will not be wealthy for very long.[...]

No, the rich make the rules to exploit others - has been so in almost
every society.

The rich are constantly in danger of losing whatever wealth they have. I
would rather have the few rich making the rules than the great unwashed
proletariat making the rules.

The purpose of most governments is to protect the ill-gotten gains of
the rich. This is a form of socialism for the wealthiest 1%.

In the US in recent years, so much wealth has gone to the rich, they have
a glut of money - much more than is needed for capital investment. So they
play games on Wall Street [1], put the money in foreign tax shelters, etc.

The thing that matters is that the rest of us have at least enough to live
on and a small surplus too so that we can have some leisure.

Even that is too much for those who wish to reintroduce the feudal
system. Did the serfs have a small surplus and leisure?

If you want to stimulate the economy, increase the share of the working
classes, since they will spend most of it and create the demand for
capital improvement. Tax cuts for the rich in the current environment do
little to nothing to stimulate the economy, since lack of capital for
investment is not a problem.

Well, that is what liberal Dems are suppose to be doing, looking after the
working class, but as always they do a poor **** job of everything they lay
their hand to.

The Dimocrats (sic) are on the corporate payroll, just like the
Repugnicans (sic).

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007

"The last 35 years may have been a bad time to be an ordinary
American, but the elite has seen their wealth and income soar
to levels even greater than the gilded age. The rich, in
America, have never, ever, been as rich as they are now."
- Ian Welsh

Ron Wallenfang wrote:
[...]
But I can dream. After all, much of the Old Testament is hardly more
tolerant; consider, for example the rejection by God of King Saul
because he failed to massacre the inhabitants of the lands he
conquered. But that material remains in the Bible, it is not
normative. As Vatican 2's Constitution on Divine Revelation puts it,
"These [OT] books, though they also contain some things which are
incomplete and temporary, ..........." (Par. 15) And rare indeed is
the Jew who sees accounts like these as models for conduct today.

No trips to Gaza or the West Bank recently? The fanatical Zionists have
no problem with slaughtering Arabs at random. Just like many of the
European immigrants to the Western Hemisphere had no problem with
slaughtering the indigenous peoples.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007