#161
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Better Braking?
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 7:48:07 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 7 February 2020 10:01:13 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:15:30 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/6/2020 1:30 PM, wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote: We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a 0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important. Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better." Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up..... Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike. Identification isn't the issue. Benefits vs. detriments are the issue - or should be. Do you care to address any of the technical points in that Santana article? https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/ Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's? https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/ Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical discussion - not all of it correct, of course. Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics. That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes? Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes. - Frank Krygowski And not a problem I've had in 15 years of riding road discs, cable and hydraulic. I was unable to stop my canti-equipped touring bike while hauling my son in a Burley trailer in the rain once, and I had trouble stopping a bike with Universal CX brakes once (don't know why they were an issue) -- and I had trouble stopping a front cable discs once because I wore the pads down and didn't spin-in the adjuster (it's automatic on hydro discs). A quick adjustment solved that. I've done 14-15 mile descents (Larch Mountain) on discs with no problems. Like I said, the brakes in that article had problems beyond any inherent in the design. 400-500 feet of descending is nothing. That's half the descending I can do just riding into town over the hills, which I've done on discs many, many times. -- Jay Beattie. I've said it before that I notice a big difference in the stopping distance of my dropbar snow bike in slop with the V-brakes over what the cantilever brakes did on the same wheels, the same bike and the same conditions. Those cantilever brakes were properly set up too. If I was buying a new bike I might consider disc brakes provided I positively knew they wouldn't be noisy when not applied. Disc brake noise is something I see posted about a lot on various forums. Cheers There are road bike/CX bike cantilevers and MTB cantilevers. The difference is the leverage. MTB's have that long handle that is easy to exert a lot of pressure and has a long pull whereas drop-bar levers have a much shorter pull and more leverage. It is very easy to mistake the one for the other. It is a common mistake to think they are the same when they are not. |
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#162
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Better Braking?
On Friday, 7 February 2020 11:36:50 UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 7:48:07 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Friday, 7 February 2020 10:01:13 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:15:30 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/6/2020 1:30 PM, wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote: We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a 0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important.. Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better." Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up..... Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike. Identification isn't the issue. Benefits vs. detriments are the issue - or should be. Do you care to address any of the technical points in that Santana article? https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/ Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's? https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/ Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical discussion - not all of it correct, of course. Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics. That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes? Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes. - Frank Krygowski And not a problem I've had in 15 years of riding road discs, cable and hydraulic. I was unable to stop my canti-equipped touring bike while hauling my son in a Burley trailer in the rain once, and I had trouble stopping a bike with Universal CX brakes once (don't know why they were an issue) -- and I had trouble stopping a front cable discs once because I wore the pads down and didn't spin-in the adjuster (it's automatic on hydro discs). A quick adjustment solved that. I've done 14-15 mile descents (Larch Mountain) on discs with no problems. Like I said, the brakes in that article had problems beyond any inherent in the design. 400-500 feet of descending is nothing. That's half the descending I can do just riding into town over the hills, which I've done on discs many, many times. -- Jay Beattie. I've said it before that I notice a big difference in the stopping distance of my dropbar snow bike in slop with the V-brakes over what the cantilever brakes did on the same wheels, the same bike and the same conditions. Those cantilever brakes were properly set up too. If I was buying a new bike I might consider disc brakes provided I positively knew they wouldn't be noisy when not applied. Disc brake noise is something I see posted about a lot on various forums. Cheers There are road bike/CX bike cantilevers and MTB cantilevers. The difference is the leverage. MTB's have that long handle that is easy to exert a lot of pressure and has a long pull whereas drop-bar levers have a much shorter pull and more leverage. It is very easy to mistake the one for the other. It is a common mistake to think they are the same when they are not. Sorry Old Fellow, (LOL) but the cantilever brakes on my bikes are/were the proper ones for the type of bike they were on. Cheers |
#163
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Better Braking?
On 2/7/2020 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 7:48:07 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Friday, 7 February 2020 10:01:13 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:15:30 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/6/2020 1:30 PM, wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote: We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a 0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important. Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better." Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up..... Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike. Identification isn't the issue. Benefits vs. detriments are the issue - or should be. Do you care to address any of the technical points in that Santana article? https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/ Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's? https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/ Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical discussion - not all of it correct, of course. Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics. That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes? Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes. - Frank Krygowski And not a problem I've had in 15 years of riding road discs, cable and hydraulic. I was unable to stop my canti-equipped touring bike while hauling my son in a Burley trailer in the rain once, and I had trouble stopping a bike with Universal CX brakes once (don't know why they were an issue) -- and I had trouble stopping a front cable discs once because I wore the pads down and didn't spin-in the adjuster (it's automatic on hydro discs). A quick adjustment solved that. I've done 14-15 mile descents (Larch Mountain) on discs with no problems. Like I said, the brakes in that article had problems beyond any inherent in the design. 400-500 feet of descending is nothing. That's half the descending I can do just riding into town over the hills, which I've done on discs many, many times. -- Jay Beattie. I've said it before that I notice a big difference in the stopping distance of my dropbar snow bike in slop with the V-brakes over what the cantilever brakes did on the same wheels, the same bike and the same conditions. Those cantilever brakes were properly set up too. If I was buying a new bike I might consider disc brakes provided I positively knew they wouldn't be noisy when not applied. Disc brake noise is something I see posted about a lot on various forums. Cheers There are road bike/CX bike cantilevers and MTB cantilevers. The difference is the leverage. MTB's have that long handle that is easy to exert a lot of pressure and has a long pull whereas drop-bar levers have a much shorter pull and more leverage. It is very easy to mistake the one for the other. It is a common mistake to think they are the same when they are not. Different cantilevers for MTB/CX bikes? Really? When did that start? -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#164
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Better Braking?
On 2/7/2020 10:01 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:15:30 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's? https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/ Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical discussion - not all of it correct, of course. Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics. That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes? Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes. - Frank Krygowski And not a problem I've had in 15 years of riding road discs, cable and hydraulic. I was unable to stop my canti-equipped touring bike while hauling my son in a Burley trailer in the rain once, and I had trouble stopping a bike with Universal CX brakes once (don't know why they were an issue) -- and I had trouble stopping a front cable discs once because I wore the pads down and didn't spin-in the adjuster (it's automatic on hydro discs). A quick adjustment solved that. I've done 14-15 mile descents (Larch Mountain) on discs with no problems. Like I said, the brakes in that article had problems beyond any inherent in the design. 400-500 feet of descending is nothing. That's half the descending I can do just riding into town over the hills, which I've done on discs many, many times. One thing that was pointed out in a technical article many years ago (back when _Buycycling_ actually had technical articles) was that many riders unconsciously descend at the speed that's absolutely worst for brakes. Below roughly 30 mph (50 kph), the rate of energy input (i.e. power or heat input) to the brakes is lower, proportional to speed. Above about 30 mph, heat is shed faster due to more aerodynamic cooling. But most avid cyclists seem to descend at about 30 mph, because they run out of nerve going faster. And this group being what it is, I'm forced to say I'm NOT accusing anyone here of doing that! But as with so many other things, we should at least wonder about the details of riding behavior and technique. I think (I'm not sure) that the worst descent I ever did (for brakes) was coming down the west side of Lolo Pass in Idaho. I was heavily loaded and a bit concerned about overheating rims with my cantilevers, so I took it pretty fast, probably 40 mph. My wife and daughter were less heavily loaded and more cautious, and took it much slower. My wife had cantilevers identical to mine, and my daughter had dual pivots that I'd modified for more tire clearance. I don't know what their speed was (and I'm only guessing at mine), but we all did fine. Ditto crossing the Appalachians a couple times, which tend to have much steeper but shorter descents. Ditto many Appalachian foothills, etc, etc. That Lolo Pass descent is scary steep for the first, oh, maybe five miles or so. After that, it gets wonderful. It's roughly 100 miles of beautiful easy descent with lovely scenery. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#165
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Better Braking?
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 9:47:25 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/7/2020 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 7:48:07 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Friday, 7 February 2020 10:01:13 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:15:30 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/6/2020 1:30 PM, wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote: We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a 0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important. Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better." Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up..... Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike. Identification isn't the issue. Benefits vs. detriments are the issue - or should be. Do you care to address any of the technical points in that Santana article? https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/ Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's? https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/ Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical discussion - not all of it correct, of course. Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics. That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes? Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes. - Frank Krygowski And not a problem I've had in 15 years of riding road discs, cable and hydraulic. I was unable to stop my canti-equipped touring bike while hauling my son in a Burley trailer in the rain once, and I had trouble stopping a bike with Universal CX brakes once (don't know why they were an issue) -- and I had trouble stopping a front cable discs once because I wore the pads down and didn't spin-in the adjuster (it's automatic on hydro discs). A quick adjustment solved that. I've done 14-15 mile descents (Larch Mountain) on discs with no problems. Like I said, the brakes in that article had problems beyond any inherent in the design. 400-500 feet of descending is nothing. That's half the descending I can do just riding into town over the hills, which I've done on discs many, many times. -- Jay Beattie. I've said it before that I notice a big difference in the stopping distance of my dropbar snow bike in slop with the V-brakes over what the cantilever brakes did on the same wheels, the same bike and the same conditions. Those cantilever brakes were properly set up too. If I was buying a new bike I might consider disc brakes provided I positively knew they wouldn't be noisy when not applied. Disc brake noise is something I see posted about a lot on various forums. Cheers There are road bike/CX bike cantilevers and MTB cantilevers. The difference is the leverage. MTB's have that long handle that is easy to exert a lot of pressure and has a long pull whereas drop-bar levers have a much shorter pull and more leverage. It is very easy to mistake the one for the other. |
#166
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Better Braking?
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 11:09:15 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 9:47:25 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote: On 2/7/2020 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 7:48:07 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Friday, 7 February 2020 10:01:13 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:15:30 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/6/2020 1:30 PM, wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote: We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a 0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important. Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better." Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up..... Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike. Identification isn't the issue. Benefits vs. detriments are the issue - or should be. Do you care to address any of the technical points in that Santana article? https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/ Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's? https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/ Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical discussion - not all of it correct, of course. Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics. That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes? Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes. - Frank Krygowski And not a problem I've had in 15 years of riding road discs, cable and hydraulic. I was unable to stop my canti-equipped touring bike while hauling my son in a Burley trailer in the rain once, and I had trouble stopping a bike with Universal CX brakes once (don't know why they were an issue) -- and I had trouble stopping a front cable discs once because I wore the pads down and didn't spin-in the adjuster (it's automatic on hydro discs). A quick adjustment solved that. I've done 14-15 mile descents (Larch Mountain) on discs with no problems. Like I said, the brakes in that article had problems beyond any inherent in the design. 400-500 feet of descending is nothing. That's half the descending I can do just riding into town over the hills, which I've done on discs many, many times. -- Jay Beattie. I've said it before that I notice a big difference in the stopping distance of my dropbar snow bike in slop with the V-brakes over what the cantilever brakes did on the same wheels, the same bike and the same conditions. Those cantilever brakes were properly set up too. If I was buying a new bike I might consider disc brakes provided I positively knew they wouldn't be noisy when not applied. Disc brake noise is something I see posted about a lot on various forums. Cheers There are road bike/CX bike cantilevers and MTB cantilevers. The difference is the leverage. MTB's have that long handle that is easy to exert a lot of pressure and has a long pull whereas drop-bar levers have a much shorter pull and more leverage. It is very easy to mistake the one for the other. It is a common mistake to think they are the same when they are not. Different cantilevers for MTB/CX bikes? Really? When did that start? Didn't you get the memo? Pffff. My CX friends agonized over their cantilevers -- the brakes that were good at shedding mud didn't stop well or stuck out too far, and the brakes that stopped well (better) didn't shed mud. None worked well with STI/Ergo. Spooky, Empella, Paul, etc., etc. I feel sorry for those companies now that discs have taken over. -- Jay Beattie. https://www.benscycle.com/Shimano-Cy...C%20% 2457.99 https://www.jensonusa.com/Tektro-CR7...ilever%20Brake |
#167
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Better Braking?
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 11:09:15 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 9:47:25 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote: On 2/7/2020 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 7:48:07 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Friday, 7 February 2020 10:01:13 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:15:30 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/6/2020 1:30 PM, wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote: We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a 0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important. Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better." Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up..... Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike. Identification isn't the issue. Benefits vs. detriments are the issue - or should be. Do you care to address any of the technical points in that Santana article? https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/ Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's? https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/ Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical discussion - not all of it correct, of course. Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics. That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes? Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes. - Frank Krygowski And not a problem I've had in 15 years of riding road discs, cable and hydraulic. I was unable to stop my canti-equipped touring bike while hauling my son in a Burley trailer in the rain once, and I had trouble stopping a bike with Universal CX brakes once (don't know why they were an issue) -- and I had trouble stopping a front cable discs once because I wore the pads down and didn't spin-in the adjuster (it's automatic on hydro discs). A quick adjustment solved that. I've done 14-15 mile descents (Larch Mountain) on discs with no problems. Like I said, the brakes in that article had problems beyond any inherent in the design. 400-500 feet of descending is nothing. That's half the descending I can do just riding into town over the hills, which I've done on discs many, many times. -- Jay Beattie. I've said it before that I notice a big difference in the stopping distance of my dropbar snow bike in slop with the V-brakes over what the cantilever brakes did on the same wheels, the same bike and the same conditions. Those cantilever brakes were properly set up too. If I was buying a new bike I might consider disc brakes provided I positively knew they wouldn't be noisy when not applied. Disc brake noise is something I see posted about a lot on various forums. Cheers There are road bike/CX bike cantilevers and MTB cantilevers. The difference is the leverage. MTB's have that long handle that is easy to exert a lot of pressure and has a long pull whereas drop-bar levers have a much shorter pull and more leverage. It is very easy to mistake the one for the other. It is a common mistake to think they are the same when they are not. Different cantilevers for MTB/CX bikes? Really? When did that start? Didn't you get the memo? Pffff. My CX friends agonized over their cantilevers -- the brakes that were good at shedding mud didn't stop well or stuck out too far, and the brakes that stopped well (better) didn't shed mud. None worked well with STI/Ergo. Spooky, Empella, Paul, etc., etc. I feel sorry for those companies now that discs have taken over. -- Jay Beattie. https://www.jensonusa.com/Tektro-CR7...ilever%20Brake https://www.benscycle.com/Shimano-Cy...C%20% 2457.99 As you can see, they are absolutely identical. |
#168
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Better Braking?
On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 09:44:45 -0600, AMuzi wrote:
People like what they like and that, for me, explains it fully,. And tend to think that what they like is also what happens to be right, and everyone else is therefore wrong. Which explains every rec.bikes.tech flame war ever... ;-) Aesthetically my favorite brake ever was the Campagnolo Nuovo Record sidepull. Why? It was the unobtanium of my youth, the ne plus ultra, and the brake Eddy used. Oddly enough, now I can afford to get them but never have. Humans are funny. |
#169
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Better Braking?
On 2/7/2020 3:38 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 11:09:15 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 9:47:25 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote: On 2/7/2020 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 7:48:07 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Friday, 7 February 2020 10:01:13 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:15:30 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 5:14:45 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:54:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/6/2020 1:30 PM, wrote: On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote: We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a 0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important. Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better." Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up..... Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike. Identification isn't the issue. Benefits vs. detriments are the issue - or should be. Do you care to address any of the technical points in that Santana article? https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/ Are your discs "better" for long fast descents, like this guy's? https://bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa...ill-they-work/ Granted, it's an old article, but there is lots of specific technical discussion - not all of it correct, of course. Here, ISTM we could use more tech discussion, more specifics. That disc failure occurred after three minutes (and nine seconds) of descending at 30mph with an elevation loss of 493 feet in a mile and a half. Wow, that means I'd have brake failure twice just riding into work over the West Hills. Do you think there might be a problem with those brakes? Yes, a problem I've never had with cantilever brakes. - Frank Krygowski And not a problem I've had in 15 years of riding road discs, cable and hydraulic. I was unable to stop my canti-equipped touring bike while hauling my son in a Burley trailer in the rain once, and I had trouble stopping a bike with Universal CX brakes once (don't know why they were an issue) -- and I had trouble stopping a front cable discs once because I wore the pads down and didn't spin-in the adjuster (it's automatic on hydro discs). A quick adjustment solved that. I've done 14-15 mile descents (Larch Mountain) on discs with no problems. Like I said, the brakes in that article had problems beyond any inherent in the design. 400-500 feet of descending is nothing. That's half the descending I can do just riding into town over the hills, which I've done on discs many, many times. -- Jay Beattie. I've said it before that I notice a big difference in the stopping distance of my dropbar snow bike in slop with the V-brakes over what the cantilever brakes did on the same wheels, the same bike and the same conditions. Those cantilever brakes were properly set up too. If I was buying a new bike I might consider disc brakes provided I positively knew they wouldn't be noisy when not applied. Disc brake noise is something I see posted about a lot on various forums. Cheers There are road bike/CX bike cantilevers and MTB cantilevers. The difference is the leverage. MTB's have that long handle that is easy to exert a lot of pressure and has a long pull whereas drop-bar levers have a much shorter pull and more leverage. It is very easy to mistake the one for the other. It is a common mistake to think they are the same when they are not. Different cantilevers for MTB/CX bikes? Really? When did that start? Didn't you get the memo? Pffff. My CX friends agonized over their cantilevers -- the brakes that were good at shedding mud didn't stop well or stuck out too far, and the brakes that stopped well (better) didn't shed mud. None worked well with STI/Ergo. Spooky, Empella, Paul, etc., etc. I feel sorry for those companies now that discs have taken over. -- Jay Beattie. https://www.jensonusa.com/Tektro-CR7...ilever%20Brake https://www.benscycle.com/Shimano-Cy...C%20% 2457.99 As you can see, they are absolutely identical. Either of those would fit and perform as well on either style bike, What did I miss? -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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Better Braking?
On Fri, 07 Feb 2020 16:41:35 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote: On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 09:44:45 -0600, AMuzi wrote: People like what they like and that, for me, explains it fully,. And tend to think that what they like is also what happens to be right, and everyone else is therefore wrong. Which explains every rec.bikes.tech flame war ever... ;-) And what is so astonishing is how "they" just can seem to realize how superior "Mine" are in comparison to all the others :-) -- cheers, John B. |
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