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#21
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Tamper-resistant screws
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:30:18 -0700, pm wrote:
On Nov 1, 6:40Â*am, jim beam wrote: On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:23:10 -0700, Chalo wrote: jim beam wrote: Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote: Doesn't look they have any socket head cap screws. Pan or button heads might work, but I'd check to make sure that the head diameter isn't too great to fit into the counterbore where the old cap heads formerly lived. if you want tamper resistance to have a chance of being effective, you need button heads. What difference would that make, if the head is sunk in a counterbore? Chalo have you ever seen a bike brake disk that's counterbored? I doubt that people are unbolting and stealing brake disks -- this requires you to remove the wheel, which, why not just steal the wheel? don't ask me dude - read the op's post! Disk brake caliper mounts are often counterbored. not to the extent that you can't still get visegrips on them they're not. Â*or seat post clamp? Uh, yeah, the one on my bike right now. Bog standard OEM Kona seat post clamp. Google image search "seat clamp" for lots and lots of other examples. sure there are examples, but having bothered to look at the clamps on the bikes in my own garage, they're not all like that. selective data presentation does not an argument make. Â*or... Â*bottom line, it doesn't if the head /is/ fully sunk, but few are. I think Chalo was needling you, ya think??? more subtly than others might, about your tendency to go off half cocked without actually paying attention to the question. um, if you say so. but at least i could be bothered to read and context from the o.p. - which is a good deal more than some people around here can be bothered to do. You are correct that in non-counterbored applications a button head is more secure, but this was a useless response to someone specifically asking about a counterbored screwhole, in which a button head will not fit. except for the ones where they do. check your facts. |
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#22
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Tamper-resistant screws
jim beam wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:30:18 -0700, pm wrote: On Nov 1, 6:40 am, jim beam wrote: On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:23:10 -0700, Chalo wrote: jim beam wrote: Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote: Doesn't look they have any socket head cap screws. Pan or button heads might work, but I'd check to make sure that the head diameter isn't too great to fit into the counterbore where the old cap heads formerly lived. if you want tamper resistance to have a chance of being effective, you need button heads. What difference would that make, if the head is sunk in a counterbore? Chalo have you ever seen a bike brake disk that's counterbored? I doubt that people are unbolting and stealing brake disks -- this requires you to remove the wheel, which, why not just steal the wheel? don't ask me dude - read the op's post! Disk brake caliper mounts are often counterbored. not to the extent that you can't still get visegrips on them they're not. or seat post clamp? Uh, yeah, the one on my bike right now. Bog standard OEM Kona seat post clamp. Google image search "seat clamp" for lots and lots of other examples. sure there are examples, but having bothered to look at the clamps on the bikes in my own garage, they're not all like that. selective data presentation does not an argument make. or... bottom line, it doesn't if the head /is/ fully sunk, but few are. I think Chalo was needling you, ya think??? more subtly than others might, about your tendency to go off half cocked without actually paying attention to the question. um, if you say so. but at least i could be bothered to read and context from the o.p. - which is a good deal more than some people around here can be bothered to do. You are correct that in non-counterbored applications a button head is more secure, but this was a useless response to someone specifically asking about a counterbored screwhole, in which a button head will not fit. except for the ones where they do. check your facts. I dunno what the big deal is... if a thief wants your stuff, tamper proof bolts or not, he can get it. I have a set of tamper proof bits that I bought at Micro Center for about $5, and it fits in a coat pocket. Has allen, Torx, and those weird 2-hole ones like you see in public restrooms. Probably the only truly theft proof solution would be screws with a one-way head, but that would cause other issues. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
#23
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Tamper-resistant screws
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 17:30:25 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:
jim beam wrote: On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:30:18 -0700, pm wrote: On Nov 1, 6:40 am, jim beam wrote: On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:23:10 -0700, Chalo wrote: jim beam wrote: Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote: Doesn't look they have any socket head cap screws. Pan or button heads might work, but I'd check to make sure that the head diameter isn't too great to fit into the counterbore where the old cap heads formerly lived. if you want tamper resistance to have a chance of being effective, you need button heads. What difference would that make, if the head is sunk in a counterbore? Chalo have you ever seen a bike brake disk that's counterbored? I doubt that people are unbolting and stealing brake disks -- this requires you to remove the wheel, which, why not just steal the wheel? don't ask me dude - read the op's post! Disk brake caliper mounts are often counterbored. not to the extent that you can't still get visegrips on them they're not. or seat post clamp? Uh, yeah, the one on my bike right now. Bog standard OEM Kona seat post clamp. Google image search "seat clamp" for lots and lots of other examples. sure there are examples, but having bothered to look at the clamps on the bikes in my own garage, they're not all like that. selective data presentation does not an argument make. or... bottom line, it doesn't if the head /is/ fully sunk, but few are. I think Chalo was needling you, ya think??? more subtly than others might, about your tendency to go off half cocked without actually paying attention to the question. um, if you say so. but at least i could be bothered to read and context from the o.p. - which is a good deal more than some people around here can be bothered to do. You are correct that in non-counterbored applications a button head is more secure, but this was a useless response to someone specifically asking about a counterbored screwhole, in which a button head will not fit. except for the ones where they do. check your facts. I dunno what the big deal is... if a thief wants your stuff, tamper proof bolts or not, he can get it. indeed - thrown the whole damned thing in the back of the truck and drive away. most forms of locking device are pretty much pointless for nice bikes - i don't use them. I have a set of tamper proof bits that I bought at Micro Center for about $5, and it fits in a coat pocket. Has allen, Torx, and those weird 2-hole ones like you see in public restrooms. Probably the only truly theft proof solution would be screws with a one-way head, but that would cause other issues. nate |
#24
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Tamper-resistant screws
"jim beam" wrote in message ... On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:30:18 -0700, pm wrote: have you ever seen a bike brake disk that's counterbored? I doubt that people are unbolting and stealing brake disks -- this requires you to remove the wheel, which, why not just steal the wheel? don't ask me dude - read the op's post! If _you_ had read the OP's post you would have known that he said disk brake CALIPERS, not the disks themselves. Disk brake caliper mounts are often counterbored. not to the extent that you can't still get visegrips on them they're not. Uh, yeah, the one on my bike right now. Bog standard OEM Kona seat post clamp. Google image search "seat clamp" for lots and lots of other examples. sure there are examples, but having bothered to look at the clamps on the bikes in my own garage, they're not all like that. selective data presentation does not an argument make. um, if you say so. but at least i could be bothered to read and context from the o.p. - which is a good deal more than some people around here can be bothered to do. HAHAHAHAHAHA |
#25
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Tamper-resistant screws
On Nov 1, 4:30*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
jim beam wrote: On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:30:18 -0700, pm wrote: On Nov 1, 6:40 am, jim beam wrote: On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:23:10 -0700, Chalo wrote: jim beam wrote: Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote: Doesn't look they have any socket head cap screws. Pan or button heads might work, but I'd check to make sure that the head diameter isn't too great to fit into the counterbore where the old cap heads formerly lived. if you want tamper resistance to have a chance of being effective, you need button heads. What difference would that make, if the head is sunk in a counterbore? Chalo have you ever seen a bike brake disk that's counterbored? I doubt that people are unbolting and stealing brake disks -- this requires you to remove the wheel, which, why not just steal the wheel? don't ask me dude - read the op's post! Disk brake caliper mounts are often counterbored. not to the extent that you can't still get visegrips on them they're not. |
#26
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Tamper-resistant screws
On Nov 1, 2:28*pm, jim beam wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:30:18 -0700, pm wrote: On Nov 1, 6:40*am, jim beam wrote: On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:23:10 -0700, Chalo wrote: jim beam wrote: Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote: Doesn't look they have any socket head cap screws. Pan or button heads might work, but I'd check to make sure that the head diameter isn't too great to fit into the counterbore where the old cap heads formerly lived. if you want tamper resistance to have a chance of being effective, you need button heads. What difference would that make, if the head is sunk in a counterbore? Chalo have you ever seen a bike brake disk that's counterbored? I doubt that people are unbolting and stealing brake disks -- this requires you to remove the wheel, which, why not just steal the wheel? don't ask me dude - read the op's post! "Disk brake calipers, seat posts, seats, handlebars, stems, etc." As I remembered, brake disks are not mentioned. Fair point though -- I'll be sure to not ask you questions you don't know the answers to in the future. Disk brake caliper mounts are often counterbored. not to the extent that you can't still get visegrips on them they're not. To the extent that one cannot use a button head screw on them, they are. *or seat post clamp? Uh, yeah, the one on my bike right now. Bog standard OEM Kona seat post clamp. Google image search "seat clamp" for lots and lots of other examples. sure there are examples, but having bothered to look at the clamps on the bikes in my own garage, they're not all like that. *selective data presentation does not an argument make. Hmm. "Have you ever seen a seat post clamp that's counterbored?" becomes "They're not all like that." I always thought it was kind of embarrassing to move the goalposts so blatantly. So your point is, when someone asks about a part that has a counterbored hole, it is appropriate to suggest a solution that does not work on in that application, because the solution would be appropriate to some other products that are... not being discussed. Yes, that makes a lot of sense. *or... *bottom line, it doesn't if the head /is/ fully sunk, but few are. I think Chalo was needling you, ya think??? more subtly than others might, about your tendency to go off half cocked without actually paying attention to the question. um, if you say so. *but at least i could be bothered to read and context from the o.p. - which is a good deal more than some people around here can be bothered to do. Except for the two failures to bother evidenced in this last message, sure. You are correct that in non-counterbored applications a button head is more secure, but this was a useless response to someone specifically asking about a counterbored screwhole, in which a button head will not fit. except for the ones where they do. *check your facts. Fair request. Standard counterbore diameters: http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-cb-metric.htm Typical button screw head diameters: http://www.mjvail.com/holokrome/dd_bhcs_metric.html (dig the note about fastener strength! Yeah, let's put these on a brake caliper...): Now, oversize counterbores exist, sure. Have you ever seen one on a brake caliper mount? Or a seat post clamp? -pm |
#27
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Tamper-resistant screws
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 15:26:01 -0700, pm wrote:
On Nov 1, 2:28Â*pm, jim beam wrote: On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:30:18 -0700, pm wrote: On Nov 1, 6:40Â*am, jim beam wrote: On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:23:10 -0700, Chalo wrote: jim beam wrote: Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote: Doesn't look they have any socket head cap screws. Pan or button heads might work, but I'd check to make sure that the head diameter isn't too great to fit into the counterbore where the old cap heads formerly lived. if you want tamper resistance to have a chance of being effective, you need button heads. What difference would that make, if the head is sunk in a counterbore? Chalo have you ever seen a bike brake disk that's counterbored? I doubt that people are unbolting and stealing brake disks -- this requires you to remove the wheel, which, why not just steal the wheel? don't ask me dude - read the op's post! "Disk brake calipers, seat posts, seats, handlebars, stems, etc." As I remembered, brake disks are not mentioned. Fair point though -- I'll be sure to not ask you questions you don't know the answers to in the future. eh? Disk brake caliper mounts are often counterbored. not to the extent that you can't still get visegrips on them they're not. To the extent that one cannot use a button head screw on them, they are. eh? http://www.fullermetric.com/technica...tton_head.html m6 button head has a max diameter of 10.50mm http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tabl...cap_screws.htm m6 machine screw max diameter 10.00mm if your counterboring is accurate to within 0.25mm, you must have an exceptional bike. because my bikes will take both heads in the same hole. and yes, i have checked. Â*or seat post clamp? Uh, yeah, the one on my bike right now. Bog standard OEM Kona seat post clamp. Google image search "seat clamp" for lots and lots of other examples. sure there are examples, but having bothered to look at the clamps on the bikes in my own garage, they're not all like that. Â*selective data presentation does not an argument make. Hmm. "Have you ever seen a seat post clamp that's counterbored?" becomes "They're not all like that." I always thought it was kind of embarrassing to move the goalposts so blatantly. snip remaining blah so, blanket assumptions that /all/ bikes are like your "bog standard" single case kona are ok, but all other cases must be moving the goal posts??? so glad we cleared that one up then. |
#28
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Tamper-resistant screws
"landotter" wrote in message ... On Nov 1, 4:30 pm, Nate Nagel wrote: jim beam wrote: On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:30:18 -0700, pm wrote: On Nov 1, 6:40 am, jim beam wrote: On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:23:10 -0700, Chalo wrote: jim beam wrote: Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote: Doesn't look they have any socket head cap screws. Pan or button heads might work, but I'd check to make sure that the head diameter isn't too great to fit into the counterbore where the old cap heads formerly lived. if you want tamper resistance to have a chance of being effective, you need button heads. What difference would that make, if the head is sunk in a counterbore? Chalo have you ever seen a bike brake disk that's counterbored? I doubt that people are unbolting and stealing brake disks -- this requires you to remove the wheel, which, why not just steal the wheel? don't ask me dude - read the op's post! Disk brake caliper mounts are often counterbored. not to the extent that you can't still get visegrips on them they're not. or seat post clamp? Uh, yeah, the one on my bike right now. Bog standard OEM Kona seat post clamp. Google image search "seat clamp" for lots and lots of other examples. sure there are examples, but having bothered to look at the clamps on the bikes in my own garage, they're not all like that. selective data presentation does not an argument make. or... bottom line, it doesn't if the head /is/ fully sunk, but few are. I think Chalo was needling you, ya think??? more subtly than others might, about your tendency to go off half cocked without actually paying attention to the question. um, if you say so. but at least i could be bothered to read and context from the o.p. - which is a good deal more than some people around here can be bothered to do. You are correct that in non-counterbored applications a button head is more secure, but this was a useless response to someone specifically asking about a counterbored screwhole, in which a button head will not fit. except for the ones where they do. check your facts. I dunno what the big deal is... if a thief wants your stuff, tamper proof bolts or not, he can get it. I have a set of tamper proof bits that I bought at Micro Center for about $5, and it fits in a coat pocket. Has allen, Torx, and those weird 2-hole ones like you see in public restrooms. Probably the only truly theft proof solution would be screws with a one-way head, but that would cause other issues. Bottom line is: don't lock fancy bikes in high risk areas with great frequency. If people really want your bike, it's theirs. That's why my daily rider is a boring $400 bike with "secret" upgrades like handbuilt wheels, good brake shoes, etc, but no bling post, stem, or brake calipers. I see waaaay too many posts on Craigslist that say, "new bike last seen by Vandy/Belmont, please help find..." What looks attractive in a showroom looks really fantastic when locked up at a bike rack... This is why, when I ride my cross bike and park somewhere downtown, I always take the disk calipers with me, along with the wheels, cranks (with pedals), seat post, derailleurs -- sometimes the fork and bars if it is a bad part of town. I just hope that the thieves don't have BB tools. -- Jay Beattie. |
#29
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Tamper-resistant screws
On Nov 1, 6:31*pm, "Jay Beattie" wrote:
"landotter" wrote in message ... On Nov 1, 4:30 pm, Nate Nagel wrote: jim beam wrote: On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:30:18 -0700, pm wrote: On Nov 1, 6:40 am, jim beam wrote: On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:23:10 -0700, Chalo wrote: jim beam wrote: Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote: Doesn't look they have any socket head cap screws. Pan or button heads might work, but I'd check to make sure that the head diameter isn't too great to fit into the counterbore where the old cap heads formerly lived. if you want tamper resistance to have a chance of being effective, you need button heads. What difference would that make, if the head is sunk in a counterbore? Chalo have you ever seen a bike brake disk that's counterbored? I doubt that people are unbolting and stealing brake disks -- this requires you to remove the wheel, which, why not just steal the wheel? don't ask me dude - read the op's post! Disk brake caliper mounts are often counterbored. not to the extent that you can't still get visegrips on them they're not. or seat post clamp? Uh, yeah, the one on my bike right now. Bog standard OEM Kona seat post clamp. Google image search "seat clamp" for lots and lots of other examples. sure there are examples, but having bothered to look at the clamps on the bikes in my own garage, they're not all like that. selective data presentation does not an argument make. or... bottom line, it doesn't if the head /is/ fully sunk, but few are. I think Chalo was needling you, ya think??? more subtly than others might, about your tendency to go off half cocked without actually paying attention to the question. um, if you say so. but at least i could be bothered to read and context from the o.p. - which is a good deal more than some people around here can be bothered to do. You are correct that in non-counterbored applications a button head is more secure, but this was a useless response to someone specifically asking about a counterbored screwhole, in which a button head will not fit. except for the ones where they do. check your facts. I dunno what the big deal is... if a thief wants your stuff, tamper proof bolts or not, he can get it. I have a set of tamper proof bits that I bought at Micro Center for about $5, and it fits in a coat pocket. Has allen, Torx, and those weird 2-hole ones like you see in public restrooms. Probably the only truly theft proof solution would be screws with a one-way head, but that would cause other issues. Bottom line is: don't lock fancy bikes in high risk areas with great frequency. If people really want your bike, it's theirs. That's why my daily rider is a boring $400 bike with "secret" upgrades like handbuilt wheels, good brake shoes, etc, but no bling post, stem, or brake calipers. I see waaaay too many posts on Craigslist that say, "new bike last seen by Vandy/Belmont, please help find..." What looks attractive in a showroom looks really fantastic when locked up at a bike rack... This is why, when I ride my cross bike and park somewhere downtown, I always take the disk calipers with me, *along with the wheels, cranks (with pedals), seat post, derailleurs -- sometimes the fork and bars *if it is a bad part of town. I just hope that the thieves don't have BB tools. -- Jay Beattie. If you parked in the same spot in Gothenburg or Amsterdam at night-- you might very well come back to a caliper-less bike. Some big cities, like Chicago, aren't so bad for some reason. Here you mainly get accessories swiped, but who knows when that'll change. |
#30
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Tamper-resistant screws
On Nov 1, 4:30*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
I dunno what the big deal is... if a thief wants your stuff, tamper proof bolts or not, he can get it. *I have a set of tamper proof bits that I bought at Micro Center for about $5, and it fits in a coat pocket. *Has allen, Torx, and those weird 2-hole ones like you see in public restrooms. *Probably the only truly theft proof solution would be screws with a one-way head, but that would cause other issues. The same places that sell the tamper-proof screws (and the bit kits like yours) also sell "one way" bolt removers. They bite into the head of the screw and chew it up somewhat, so perhaps a better name would be 'one-use' bolts. It's a bit like that old saw about locks keeping honest people out. |
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