The dream is back

Oh man, Ken. Now you're gonna get it!

BentJay

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 13:01:16 -0500, "Edward Dolan"
wrote in message :

Insult is in the eye of the beholder [...]
ARBR is the most anti-intellectual group imaginable. When you do not want to
meet an argument, you cry foul. What a bunch of cry babies!

Well, this beholder sees that as an insult. The idea that anybody who
disagrees with you is stupid or anti-intellectual is called arrogance
where I come from.

I went to an HPV race meet today. Ed, I recommend you try that. They
are very sociable and any old 'bent is welcome. We even raced on our
upwrong triplet. Get out and get a life!

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Edward Dolan wrote:

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
[...]

As to whether or not properly designed recumbents would be competitive in
the mountain stages is a question that can not currently be answered due
to lack of data (and anyone who claims otherwise is presenting supposition
as fact).


Yes, but our own experiences on our recumbents and just plain common sense
tell us that recumbents are poor hill climbers and could never compete with
an upright in the mountains....

Unless that experience includes being able to put out 400+ watts over an
extended time period and riding an 18-lb (~8 kgf) [1] carbon fiber
composite lowracer or highracer with a stiff boom, it tells us nothing
about how competitive a recumbent could be. Claiming otherwise just
exhibits ignorance.

[1] Several current designs can easily meet that weight with high-end
components.

--
Tom Sherman

Edward Dolan wrote:

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message
...

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:47:03 -0500, "Edward Dolan"
wrote in message :


kids of a certain age think recumbents are cool - or at least that
is what they think should be the appropriate comment whenever they see
one.
But they do not ride them nor do they truly want them.

They don't have $2000 to spend on a bike. The new KMX Kart is $500,
much less if you can find a second-hand one, and I am seeing lots of
kids at cycle rallies who own them. Not many "in the wild" but
they've only been out a couple of years. And they are great for doing
tricks, so check that box.


By the time they get old enough
for a proper road bike, they are into cars and are lost to cycling
forever -
until they get old like us and start worrying about their health. So then
they take up recumbent cycling with some seriousness prior to their
deaths.

Maybe in the US, but not here. Cycling is a mainstream form of
transport for teens, and although levels are still well down on where
they were in the 1930s there is a strong and growing culture of
tranportational and enthusiast cycling. There are large road racing,
touring and track cycling clubs in my town, and many of the riders are
young. There is even a kids' track cycling club at the local
velodrome. And this is just an ordinary provincial town.

Some recent reports put cycling as more popular than football in the
UK, in terms of numbers of participants.


I see plenty of kids with really expensive toys that their parents have
gotten for them. It the kids wanted recumbents badly enough, they would have
them regardless of cost.

I notice that many kids here in the US get brand new expensive cars from
their parents upon graduation from high school. This is probably in lieu of
a college education which we all know is the most expensive thing in the
world. The thinking is why waste money on a college education for this kid
of mine since all he wants to do anyway is run around in fancy cars, get
drunk and chase girls. Who wants to end up in the poor house just to finance
your child's education when he doesn't even want it. This is good short term
thinking, but maybe not so good for the long term.

I was given a 14 year old VW Rabbit that had 160,000+ miles, a large
rust hole in the floor, no exhaust system, non-functioning lights, and
bald tires.

--
Tom Sherman

Edward Dolan wrote:

"Ken_in_Michgan" wrote in message
om...
[...]

If we want to get the youth into bents we need to find a company that
will make a inexpensive bent that can be mass-marketed in the Meijers
and Wal-Marts of the nation.


I have been saying exactly this same thing for the past 25 years. There is
no reason on this earth why a recumbent can't be just as cheap as any
upright....

Reasons why recumbents will be inherently more expensive:

1) Odd tubes sizes and more welds, and/or mandrel bent tubes compared to
a DF upright.
2) Two to three times the chain.
3) Idlers or other chain management hardware.
4) More complicated seat with greater material and labor costs vs. mass
produced saddles.
5) Custom steering risers and handlebars or USS systems vs. mass
produced stems and handlebars.

--
Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon and Pedant

I was never given a car. Borrowed my parents in high school.
But actually, I think they give them the cars when they get there
drivers license.

Tom Sherman wrote:

Edward Dolan wrote:

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message
...

snip
I see plenty of kids with really expensive toys that their parents have
gotten for them. It the kids wanted recumbents badly enough, they would have
them regardless of cost.

I notice that many kids here in the US get brand new expensive cars from
their parents upon graduation from high school. This is probably in lieu of
a college education which we all know is the most expensive thing in the
world. The thinking is why waste money on a college education for this kid
of mine since all he wants to do anyway is run around in fancy cars, get
drunk and chase girls. Who wants to end up in the poor house just to finance
your child's education when he doesn't even want it. This is good short term
thinking, but maybe not so good for the long term.

I was given a 14 year old VW Rabbit that had 160,000+ miles, a large
rust hole in the floor, no exhaust system, non-functioning lights, and
bald tires.

--
Tom Sherman

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
[...]

As to whether or not properly designed recumbents would be competitive in
the mountain stages is a question that can not currently be answered due
to lack of data (and anyone who claims otherwise is presenting
supposition as fact).


Yes, but our own experiences on our recumbents and just plain common
sense tell us that recumbents are poor hill climbers and could never
compete with uprights in the mountains....

Unless that experience includes being able to put out 400+ watts over an
extended time period and riding an 18-lb (~8 kgf) [1] carbon fiber
composite lowracer or highracer with a stiff boom, it tells us nothing
about how competitive a recumbent could be. Claiming otherwise just
exhibits ignorance.

[1] Several current designs can easily meet that weight with high-end
components.

I'll believe it when I see it and not until.

--
Yours in Ignorance,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota





--
Tom Sherman

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
...

Yours in Ignorance,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Truer words were never spoken

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:

"Ken_in_Michgan" wrote in message
om...
[...]

If we want to get the youth into bents we need to find a company that
will make a inexpensive bent that can be mass-marketed in the Meijers
and Wal-Marts of the nation.


I have been saying exactly this same thing for the past 25 years. There
is no reason on this earth why a recumbent can't be just as cheap as any
upright....

Reasons why recumbents will be inherently more expensive:

1) Odd tubes sizes and more welds, and/or mandrel bent tubes compared to a
DF upright.

Not necessarily. A recumbent can be a monotube. In some respects a recumbent
appears simpler to me than an upright.

2) Two to three times the chain.

Chains can be made cheap enough if need be.

3) Idlers or other chain management hardware.

Idlers are trivial things as is all chain management hardware - about on the
level of nuts and bolts.

4) More complicated seat with greater material and labor costs vs. mass
produced saddles.

Recumbent seats could be churned out as cheap as any upright saddle. Kids
don't need the ultimate in comfort when it comes to seats. When I was a kid
in school, we sat at very hard wooden desks. Yet I don't ever recall my
fanny getting sore.

5) Custom steering risers and handlebars or USS systems vs. mass produced
stems and handlebars.

USS ought to be outlawed. Who needs it. All steering for recumbents for kids
would be direct steering. Risers and handlebars would be mass produced the
same as always. No difference there.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 13:01:16 -0500, "Edward Dolan"
wrote in message :

Insult is in the eye of the beholder [...]
ARBR is the most anti-intellectual group imaginable. When you do not want
to
meet an argument, you cry foul. What a bunch of cry babies!

Well, this beholder sees that as an insult. The idea that anybody who
disagrees with you is stupid or anti-intellectual is called arrogance
where I come from.

Mr. Sherman, when he is not joking around, is one of the few individuals
here on ARBR who knows how to meet an argument. There are a few others here
too who go to the substance of what is being said. Most of the rest of you
just cry like babies because you disagree with what I am saying, but you do
not want to meet my argument on a fair playing field, which is what I
consider a newsgroup to be.

I have never called anyone stupid who didn't call me stupid first. My
arrogance is 90% of what my humor is all about. Just how serious do you take
any of this newsgroup stuff anyway? As for disagreement, I thrive on it.
Bring it on!

I went to an HPV race meet today. Ed, I recommend you try that. They
are very sociable and any old 'bent is welcome. We even raced on our
upwrong triplet. Get out and get a life!

I am very sociable myself when I am out in the real world, but a newsgroup
is not the real world. It is for argument and controversy - or do you see it
differently than I do?

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota