Track cycling question

Harold Buck writes:

I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe
clips instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless
pedals? Or do they use both?

Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

Most pull-outs of road riders, for instance, occur when starting,
because under high pedal force, release forces are small relative to
pedaling force and can occur without the rider sensing the effect.

It is not that the retention fails against high load but rather that
foot rotation is less easy to control on a standing start. In other
words it is not a failure of the mechanism to retain the load but
rather a failure of the mechanism to prevent rotation (release) when
it is not wanted. Clips, straps, and slot-cleats are not subject to
rotation release but they can pull out just the same. Riders often
used double straps for this reason.

Jobst Brandt

In article ,
wrote:

Harold Buck writes:

I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe
clips instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless
pedals? Or do they use both?

Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

It is not that the retention fails against high load but rather that
foot rotation is less easy to control on a standing start. In other
words it is not a failure of the mechanism to retain the load but
rather a failure of the mechanism to prevent rotation (release) when
it is not wanted.

....This from a guy who has never raced a kilo or team sprint in his
life. Oh well.

Yes, it is easier to rotate the foot enough to pull out to the side
when doing a standing start on a banked track (~12 degrees at the start
line).

It is also possible for a strong rider to pull straight out the back of
most clipless pedal systems during standing starts because the springs
in the pedal or cleat for retention are simply not strong/tight enough
to prevent this. Speedplay Zero "track" pedals are among the best for
preventing this, as are the newest Dura-Ace pedals. LOOKS are not good,
nor are most lower-level clipless pedal systems.

I think that most of the riders you see with toe straps are not using
the old-style slotted cleat. Most of the pedals used with clips and
straps in the Olympics also have a mechanism intended to lock the shoe
to the pedal and the straps are used as a second measure to keep the
shoe on the pedals. In a way, the straps are there to prevent the shoe
from being ripped apart during the start.

-WG

warren wrote in message ...
In article ,
wrote:

Harold Buck writes:

I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe
clips instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless
pedals? Or do they use both?

Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

It is not that the retention fails against high load but rather that
foot rotation is less easy to control on a standing start. In other
words it is not a failure of the mechanism to retain the load but
rather a failure of the mechanism to prevent rotation (release) when
it is not wanted.

...This from a guy who has never raced a kilo or team sprint in his
life. Oh well.

Yes, it is easier to rotate the foot enough to pull out to the side
when doing a standing start on a banked track (~12 degrees at the start
line).

It is also possible for a strong rider to pull straight out the back of
most clipless pedal systems during standing starts because the springs
in the pedal or cleat for retention are simply not strong/tight enough
to prevent this. Speedplay Zero "track" pedals are among the best for
preventing this, as are the newest Dura-Ace pedals. LOOKS are not good,
nor are most lower-level clipless pedal systems.


yes, i agree, it depends on the pedal but LOOKs will release if you
can pull up hard enough even without rotation, and this only happens
on standing starts, or maybe a steep hill.

"warren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:

Harold Buck writes:

I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe
clips instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless
pedals? Or do they use both?

Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

It is not that the retention fails against high load but rather that
foot rotation is less easy to control on a standing start. In other
words it is not a failure of the mechanism to retain the load but
rather a failure of the mechanism to prevent rotation (release) when
it is not wanted.

...This from a guy who has never raced a kilo or team sprint in his
life. Oh well.

Yes, it is easier to rotate the foot enough to pull out to the side
when doing a standing start on a banked track (~12 degrees at the start
line).

It is also possible for a strong rider to pull straight out the back of
most clipless pedal systems during standing starts because the springs
in the pedal or cleat for retention are simply not strong/tight enough
to prevent this. Speedplay Zero "track" pedals are among the best for
preventing this, as are the newest Dura-Ace pedals. LOOKS are not good,
nor are most lower-level clipless pedal systems.

I think that most of the riders you see with toe straps are not using
the old-style slotted cleat. Most of the pedals used with clips and
straps in the Olympics also have a mechanism intended to lock the shoe
to the pedal and the straps are used as a second measure to keep the
shoe on the pedals. In a way, the straps are there to prevent the shoe
from being ripped apart during the start.

-WG

..I use MKS EXA pedals. They are a toe clip and strap pedal but the pedal has
a tab mechanism that locks into a slot in the cleat. I also uses MKS Fit A
double toe straps. Yeah it may be overkill but I have never ever pulled out
of these pedals after probably well over 200 starts. Some think that they
are dangerous in the event of a crash because they do not releas and the
bike stays with you. Personally I want the bike where I know it is at and
not flailing around in the air while it is twisting one of my knees 720
degrees.
Dave

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:04:23 GMT,
wrote:

Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

Don't generalize. Some clipless pedals WILL release if you put enough
upward pressure on the release spring. I've had it happen when i went
from 32 mph to 0 in an instant when a vehicle pulled out in front of
me.

This is a safety factor in Look pedals (at least some models) designed
to allow you to separate from the bike in extreme circumstances, like
being ejected straight out from the bike.

"Dave H" wrote in message ...
"warren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:

Harold Buck writes:

I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe
clips instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless
pedals? Or do they use both?

Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

It is not that the retention fails against high load but rather that
foot rotation is less easy to control on a standing start. In other
words it is not a failure of the mechanism to retain the load but
rather a failure of the mechanism to prevent rotation (release) when
it is not wanted.

...This from a guy who has never raced a kilo or team sprint in his
life. Oh well.

Yes, it is easier to rotate the foot enough to pull out to the side
when doing a standing start on a banked track (~12 degrees at the start
line).

It is also possible for a strong rider to pull straight out the back of
most clipless pedal systems during standing starts because the springs
in the pedal or cleat for retention are simply not strong/tight enough
to prevent this. Speedplay Zero "track" pedals are among the best for
preventing this, as are the newest Dura-Ace pedals. LOOKS are not good,
nor are most lower-level clipless pedal systems.

I think that most of the riders you see with toe straps are not using
the old-style slotted cleat. Most of the pedals used with clips and
straps in the Olympics also have a mechanism intended to lock the shoe
to the pedal and the straps are used as a second measure to keep the
shoe on the pedals. In a way, the straps are there to prevent the shoe
from being ripped apart during the start.

-WG

.I use MKS EXA pedals. They are a toe clip and strap pedal but the pedal has
a tab mechanism that locks into a slot in the cleat. I also uses MKS Fit A
double toe straps. Yeah it may be overkill but I have never ever pulled out
of these pedals after probably well over 200 starts. Some think that they
are dangerous in the event of a crash because they do not releas and the
bike stays with you. Personally I want the bike where I know it is at and
not flailing around in the air while it is twisting one of my knees 720
degrees.
Dave
H All I personaly would go with a stock Trek Alpha SLR Police Bike
Which comes with the Bontragar Peddels, and a clip and strap system.
I own a Trek SLR and Use It In Club Activities