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Where Global Warming started sliding down the pipes: Mann's "HockeyStick" NOT supported by NAS Panel



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 9th 10, 12:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.racing
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Where Global Warming started sliding down the pipes: Mann's "HockeyStick" NOT supported by NAS Panel

Mann's "Hockey Stick" NOT supported by NAS Panel
*********
In the accompanying thread anonymous "zencycle", like the fool Bill
Asher before him, claims that the NAS Panel under Gerald North
supported Michael Mann's Hockey Stick, now discredited, which was the
"science" that was supposed to prove Global Warming once and for all.

The NAS Panel was set up specifically to counter the Wegman Panel,
which had been commissioned by the US Senate to investigate Michael
Mann's statistical credibility, and had found it to be zero as
related
in "(OT) What Global Warming has in common with Marxism". The NAS
Panel expressed itself less forcefully than the Wegman Panel but in
every essential agreed with it, finding that,
*** the principal components method by which Hockey Stick was
achieved
was flawed
***RE tests are insufficient for statistical significance (i.e. the
Hockey Stick has zero meaning)
***Mann's Hockey Stick depends on bristlecone proxies which are known
to be unreliable
***Such strip bark forms should be “avoided” in reconstruction
This is a comprehensive condemnation of a statistical report, stated
politely. (In plain English, Mann was either incompetent or
deliberately cooked up a politically desirable result.) Certainly, to
support a multi-trillion policy, for which purpose the Mann Hockey
Stick was put forward by IPCC, one would expect at least enthusiastic
support from a scientist's peers, especially from a panel which was
constituted specifically to support Mann against Wegman.
North and his panel were then also called before the Senate
subcommittee, together with Wegman. The members of the NAS panel were
then asked under oath if they wished to dispute the Wegman findings,
and this interesting dialogue ensued:
CHAIRMAN BARTON. Dr. North, do you dispute the conclusions [about the
Mann papers] or the methodology of Dr. Wegman's report?
DR. NORTH. No, we don't. We don't disagree with their
criticism. In fact, pretty much the same thing is said in our
report.
DR. BLOOMFIELD [statistician to the NAS Panel]. Our committee
reviewed
the methodology used by Dr. Mann and his co-workers and we felt that
some of the choices they made were inappropriate. We had much the
same
misgivings about his work that was documented at much greater length
by Dr. Wegman.
WALLACE: The two reports were complementary, and to
the extent that they overlapped, the conclusions were quite
consistent.
In short, the NAS committee -- set up to support Mann -- agreed item
by item with Wegman's devastating condemnation of the man and his
methods as totally incompetent. I quote only two paragraphs of
Wegman's comprehensive indictment of Mann:
'The controversy of Mann’s methods lies in that the proxies are
centered on the mean of the period 1902-1995, rather than on the
whole
time period. This mean is, thus, actually decentered low, which will
cause it to exhibit a larger variance, giving it preference for being
selected as the first principal component. The net effect of this
decentering using the proxy data in MBH98 and MBH99 is to produce a
“hockey stick” shape.' Later Dr Wegman added that this was
"politically convenient".
The Wegman report executive summary concludes with a total,
contemptuous dismissal of Mann's Hockey Stick:
'Overall, our committee believes that Mann’s assessments that the
decade of the 1990s was the hottest decade of the millennium and that
1998 was the hottest year of the millennium cannot be supported by
his
analysis.'
And Dr North and everone else on the NAS Panel agreed under oath to
every word of that and more.
North claimed, somewhat limply, that the fact that the statistics
were
totally crooked didn't mean Mann didn't arrive at the right answer.
Remember, his Panel had been constituted specifically to support
Michael Mann's contention that Global Warming is a danger. And the
best they could officially say of the Mann papers were that they were
statistically incompetent but that their conclusions were nontheless
"plausible" in places. Wrong in method but "plausible"? And not even
all of it, just in parts, the rest bad, like the curate's egg? Holy
****! And on that they want to commit trillions? With such a low
standard of proof, anything at all can be made to appear plausible.
In any event, plausibility without correct method and conclusive
proof
is a personal belief, nothing to do with science, which is all about
proof. Edward Wegman said so:
Method Wrong + Answer Correct = Bad Science.
That was prophetic shorthand, as reports were already in the pipeline
that applying Mann's algorithm, which Wegman had condemned so
roundly,
to random red noise also produced a Hockey Stick. Every time. If
random inputs can duplicate your "science", it is cargo cult science.
Speak into the tennis ball, Dr Mann.
But Asher claims that the NAS Panel "supports" Mann's Hockey Stick!
Method Wrong + Answer Correct = Bad Science
Think on it, Asher.
By the way, Asher, Edward Wegman, the most distinguished statistician
in America, probably in the world, is a past chairman of the
Committee
on Applied and Theoretical Statistics of the National Academy of
Sciences, the very institution that Mann (and you, little Bill
Asher!)
cites as supporting Mann's work!
Well, actually no, Michael. Wegman consigned your incompetence to the
devil, and North's solidarity was about as grudging as you can get
without asking you to resign from the NAS. You screwed up, Dr Mann,
and you got caught out. And your supporters and followers are
operating on faith alone.
The Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age remain, and while
they
stand Global Warming is a joke. That, of course, is why the Global
Warmies, like Michael Mann, expend so much energy to lie these
historical phenomena out of existence.
Andre Jute
Reformed petrol head
Car-free since 1992
Greener than thou!
Ads
  #2  
Old September 9th 10, 01:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.racing
zencycle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 153
Default Where Global Warming started sliding down the pipes: Mann's"Hockey Stick" NOT supported by NAS Panel

On Sep 8, 7:10*pm, Andre Jute wrote:
Mann's "Hockey Stick" NOT supported by NAS Panel
*********
In the accompanying thread anonymous "zencycle"..... claims that the NAS Panel under Gerald North
supported Michael Mann's Hockey Stick,


Really, where did I say that? What I said was that North admitted the
wegman report and subsequent hearings were politically motivated. Try
paying attention next time, ****head.

btw - I'm not anonymous, you're just to ****ing stupid to figure it
out.....

  #3  
Old September 9th 10, 06:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.racing
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default Where Global Warming started sliding down the tubes: Mann's"Hockey Stick" NOT supported by North NAS Panel

On Sep 9, 1:39*pm, zencycle wrote:
On Sep 8, 7:10*pm, Andre Jute wrote:

Mann's "Hockey Stick" NOT supported by NAS Panel
*********
In the accompanying thread anonymous "zencycle"..... claims that the NAS Panel under Gerald North
supported Michael Mann's Hockey Stick,


Really, where did I say that?


Well, if you agree that North and his Panel, specifically constituted
by the NAS to defend Mann and his Hockey Stick, *didn't* support Mann
and his Hockey Stick, we have nothing further to discuss, because once
the Hockey Stick goes there is no Global Warming, only a slow climb
from the Little Ice Age back to the balmy days of the Medieval Warm
Period.

Congratulations. That's the first time I ever heard a global warmie
admit that his faith is a scientific fraud and a political ripoff of
the taxpayer.

What I said was that North admitted the
wegman report and subsequent hearings were politically motivated.


Hmm. Who cares what excuses North offered the prees -- or what they
claimed he said. What matters is what North, and each member of his
panel individually, said *under oath*, on penalty of perjury and
contempt of the Senate: they said they agreed wholeheartedly with
Wegman that the science was incompetently done and didn't support the
stalinist disappearance of the historical features of the Medieval
Warm Period and the Little Ice Age by statistical crookery.

the
wegman report and subsequent hearings were politically motivated.


Of course they were. It may have escaped your stalinist wet dreams,
but that is how a democracy works, as an adversarial system in which
you have on the one side the advocates for one way of spending the
taxpayers' money -- in this case staggering trillions of it -- and on
the other the advocates of not wasting the taxpayers' money on fool's
gold. In this case those politicians who suspected that global warming
is a faith-based scientific fraud got two opposing panels of the NAS
to agree that the science the taxpayers paid for was incompetent. Game
over. The failure of the Copenhagen green summit, carbon caps, etc,
follow as night follows day.

Try
paying attention next time, ****head.


I am, as I just demonstrated. You can track my posts on Google. I
spotted the Barton hearings as a killer blow for Global Warming as
they happened and predicted that within the decade it would fall
apart. McIntyre and McKitrick, ClimateGate, the other IPCC scandals,
the biased journalists disgraced, those were just the fissures
widening. It is you who believes press reports rather than Senate
minutes are the final arbiter. It is you who lives in a dream world.
People who live in the real world, who understand how decisions are
made, know that global warming is finished, and with it all that fear-
mongering about climate change, because the "coming ice age" has
already been done and disgraced a generation ago.

btw - I'm not anonymous, you're just to ****ing stupid to figure it
out.....


I'm not that fascinated by another fulminating, spittle-spraying
little flame warrier that I care to work out which of the worthless
little twerps in particular you are; as far as I can see you lot are
interchangeable impressionables, more offensively fashion-victim
trendies, by definition ill-informed and brainless.

Andre Jute
Are we done now?
  #4  
Old September 13th 10, 08:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.racing
zencycle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 153
Default Where Global Warming started sliding down the tubes: Mann's"Hockey Stick" NOT supported by North NAS Panel

On Sep 9, 1:59*pm, Andre Jute wrote:

Congratulations. That's the first time I ever heard a global warmie
admit that his faith is a scientific fraud and a political ripoff of
the taxpayer.


I didn't do that either.

What I said was that North admitted the
wegman report and subsequent hearings were politically motivated.


Hmm. Who cares what excuses North offered the prees -- or what they
claimed he said.


You should, since your the one offering him up as a vapid attempt to
gain credibility, and according to you he's a hypocrite.

the
wegman report and subsequent hearings were politically motivated.


Of course they were.


Good then you're on my side, They weren't conducting science, they
were creating political positioning for the greedy republicans to ask
for more campaign contributions from corporate robber barons in
exchange for removing regulations on dirty industries, resulting in
such laudable events like the massey energy mining disaster and Deep
Water Horizon explosion

It may have escaped your stalinist wet dreams,
but that is how a democracy works, as an adversarial system in which
you have on the one side the advocates for one way of spending the
taxpayers' money -- in this case staggering trillions of it -- and on
the other the advocates of not wasting the taxpayers' money on fool's
gold.


you failed 6th grade civics....dintcha' jootsy.

Try
paying attention next time, ****head.


I am, as I just demonstrated.


no, if you were, you wouldn't have claimed I 'lied', that I used media
reports as justification, and wouldn't have claimed I agreed with you.

You can track my posts on Google.


I'd rather take a vacation at gitmo

I
spotted the Barton hearings as a killer blow for Global Warming as
they happened and predicted that within the decade it would fall
apart.


Right....how's that working out for ya? I hate to be the one to break
it to you (no, actually, I enjoy it), but global warming is occurring.
Are there problems with the models? sure, and of course the biggest
contention is over anthropogenesis, and how it takes quite a bit of
'manipulation' of the computer models to make even modest predictions
of AGW seem imminent. FWIW - most scientists still understand that we
are in the midst of a warming trend - the only question is why. The
deniers you like to cite don't deny the warming trend, they doubt
anthropogensis and actually have good science to back up their
position. It's a distinction idiots like you tend to ignore.


It is you who believes press reports rather than Senate
minutes are the final arbiter.


And where did I ever present a media report as my supporting evidence?
I gave you links to the NASA website.

It is you who lives in a dream world.


I'd like to live in a world where I can dream, but jackasses like you
keep ruining it.

People who live in the real world, who understand how decisions are
made, know that global warming is finished, and with it all that fear-
mongering about climate change,


unlike you who fearmonger about alleged communist motivations in our
government. Yeah, thats _real_ different.

because the "coming ice age" has
already been done and disgraced a generation ago.


It was a prediction made well before computers were able to crunch the
massive amount of data (thermo and fluid dynamic computations) needed
to make more reasonable predictions. There have been thousands of
predictions made over the centuries, some based on vetted science,
that have turned out to be false. You can't dwell on those as an
indictment against science in general.

btw - I'm not anonymous, you're just to ****ing stupid to figure it
out.....


I'm not that fascinated by another fulminating, spittle-spraying
little flame warrier that I care to work out which of the worthless
little twerps in particular you are;


Then it might be in your best interest not to make such claims, unless
you're willing to at least attempt to back up your claims.

as far as I can see you lot are
interchangeable impressionables, more offensively fashion-victim
trendies, by definition ill-informed and brainless.


As opposed to you greedy corporate fascists using the canard of
'freedom' to allow the subjugation of the middle class by supporting
private industries "right" to pollute, socialize losses while
privatizing profits, and pervert free speech by allowing corporate
donations to control the press.

Andre Jute
Are we done now?


Not even close, you pathetic corporate stooge. As I once told a stupid
little sychophantic college intern, "suck his dick all you want, he's
not going to share his bonus with you".

And BTW - your bikes are _still_ ****ing hideous.
 




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