One for the cyclist out there

ScrumpyJoe wrote:

Cross posting removed.

Those who know the road will know its a great road for practising limit
point and car
control.

I apologise for *only* having 20 years experience as an Advanced Driver, but
I've never heard of the phrase "Limit point and car control". However the
phrase itself defines that it should NEVER be done on-road; how can you
identify a limit point without exceeding it in controlled circumstances?
Where is the margin for safety if you're on the 'limit'?

....of course, the cyclists were also at fault for being 3 and 4 abreast on
the road, when the highway code states that they should be two abreast only.
Which would have strung them out even further.

Regards,

Pete.

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 17:29:46 +0000, ScrumpyJoe
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 14:32:09 +0000, MrBitsy wrote:

Yesterday, I took two associates out for 90 minute runs. The second was an
arrogant chap who wasn't as good as he thought he was, but did show
remarkable patience while behind some cycles.

We left Hitchin towards Welwyn on the B656. Those who know the road will
know its a great road for practising limit point and car control. A couple
of miles into the road we got behind approx 15 cyclists on racing type
cycles. They were riding 3 and 4 abreast. There were no overtakes
possibilities for a mile. At no point did the cycles go to single file to
enable the long queue of cars to pass.

if they'd gone single file; 15 bikes 2 metres long at 1 metre spacing
would have created a 45m long overtake. probably more challenging than
the scenario described - unless you go against the highway code and
just slice by with no clearance, of course.

We were travelling in an Auto Nissan Micra, so no chance to use power to
pass them. We got to a straight and I got him to indicate and move to the
right, delay to make sure it was clear. Just as the driver was about to
accelerate, an extremely fast car rounded a bend in the distance. The driver
decided there wasn't the room to carry out the manourver safely, so he
indicated left and moved back behind the cycles.

quality driving.

However, three other cars went for the overtake, the last two swerving left
barely missing the cycles and the approaching car. After the opposite
traffic passed, another car overtook withing 30 yards of the right bend -
any car would have seen a collision or the overtaking car going left into
the cyclists.

incompetant driving.

This continued for 4 miles. Everytime we went for the overtake something was
not safe - road hidden, very bright direct sun on damp road, junctions or an
entrance to garden centres and the like. At no point in this 4 miles did the
cyclists go to single file. At every point we discounted the overtake on
safety grounds, other cars would chance it and pass dangerously.

sounds like your vehicle was well driven and the other cars rather
incompetantly handled.

EVERY car that passed us sounded their horn at us and the cyclists, but it
was those cars that were chancing it. The cyclists caused a load of
frustration. At no point did any of those cars exceed the speed limit, but
every single overtake was a chance - many of the cars had families in.

Disgracefull, stupid and selfish behaviour by car drivers and the cyclists.

certainly by the drivers; not so clear cut with the cyclists.

lets look at the costs and risks imposed by all concerned. the added
journey time of your vehicle was probably about 7 minutes - assume
20mph for the bikes vs a theoretical 50 had you not met them. not
excessive; had you been in a rush there is a parallel motorway about a
quarter miles to the east.

the risk caused by the reckless overtakers is frightening; the lives
of their friends and family travelling with them as well as everyone
else on the road at the time.

i would say the cyclists were frustrating but perfectly legal and to
be expected on such a road; a hazard good drivers should be able to
handle. it sounds like you were being driven by a good driver. the
other drivers you describe appear to be utter lunatics.

I think you said it all in your last line
"ScrumpyJoe" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 14:32:09 +0000, MrBitsy wrote:

Yesterday, I took two associates out for 90 minute runs. The second was
an
arrogant chap who wasn't as good as he thought he was, but did show
remarkable patience while behind some cycles.

We left Hitchin towards Welwyn on the B656. Those who know the road will
know its a great road for practising limit point and car control. A
couple
of miles into the road we got behind approx 15 cyclists on racing type
cycles. They were riding 3 and 4 abreast. There were no overtakes
possibilities for a mile. At no point did the cycles go to single file
to
enable the long queue of cars to pass.

We were travelling in an Auto Nissan Micra, so no chance to use power to
pass them. We got to a straight and I got him to indicate and move to
the
right, delay to make sure it was clear. Just as the driver was about to
accelerate, an extremely fast car rounded a bend in the distance. The
driver
decided there wasn't the room to carry out the manourver safely, so he
indicated left and moved back behind the cycles.

However, three other cars went for the overtake, the last two swerving
left
barely missing the cycles and the approaching car. After the opposite
traffic passed, another car overtook withing 30 yards of the right
bend -
any car would have seen a collision or the overtaking car going left
into
the cyclists.

This continued for 4 miles. Everytime we went for the overtake something
was
not safe - road hidden, very bright direct sun on damp road, junctions
or an
entrance to garden centres and the like. At no point in this 4 miles did
the
cyclists go to single file. At every point we discounted the overtake on
safety grounds, other cars would chance it and pass dangerously.

EVERY car that passed us sounded their horn at us and the cyclists, but
it
was those cars that were chancing it. The cyclists caused a load of
frustration. At no point did any of those cars exceed the speed limit,
but
every single overtake was a chance - many of the cars had families in.

Disgracefull, stupid and selfish behaviour by car drivers and the
cyclists.

Comments?

re-reading, i see you say the cyclists were *4* abreast for 4 miles;
that *is* a bit off!

iirc, the hc recommends 2 as a max. 4 is prob ok if there's noone else
around but to keep it up for miles with traffic piling up behind is,
as you suggest, inconsiderate.

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 17:29:46 +0000, ScrumpyJoe
wrote:

[snip tale of crass overtaking]

Comments?

If there isn't room to overtake two bikes there generally isn't room
to overtake one safely, so the two-abreast issue is a red herring. If
I'd been leading the ride I'd probably have found a lay-by or some
such to let following traffic pass, as usual, but the overtaking
drivers' behaviour is inexcusable and blaming cyclists for "causing"
dangerous overtaking is sophistry.

And as for the idea of using a public road to practice control at the
limits...

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk

ScrumpyJoe wrote:

EVERY car that passed us sounded their horn at us and the cyclists, but it
was those cars that were chancing it. The cyclists caused a load of
frustration. At no point did any of those cars exceed the speed limit, but
every single overtake was a chance - many of the cars had families in.

Disgracefull, stupid and selfish behaviour by car drivers and the cyclists.

Comments?

Without being there its difficult to comment. The Highway Code Rule 138
says "give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as
you would a car when overtaking" In those circumstances with a large group
it is sometimes preferable to ride many abreast so as to create a short
overtaking length rather than string out in a long line which takes much
longer, and depending on the road width can be much more difficult, to pass.
However continuing for 4 miles without pulling over to let traffic pass is a
bit off.

Most of the cycling groups I go with would pull into a single line on a busy
road but it is not always the best solution and I have seen it also create the
same driver reaction when the road and oncoming traffic make it difficult to
pass even a single file group.

It may be that since you were in a car that did not have the get up and go to
pass when there were passing opportunities, maybe dropping back to let others
who could, pass you, pause and then pass the cyclist would have been better.
As it was it sounds as if you were adding to the problem. We've all come
across even cars following so close behind each other that they leave no room
to pull in between and you either don't pass or have to pass the whole lot in
one go.

None of that though justifies the behaviour you describe from other drivers.
It is the responsibility of the overtaking party to ensure that they only
overtake when safe to do so and clearly they were not discharging that
responsibility here.

Just my $0.02

Tony

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

If there isn't room to overtake two bikes there generally isn't room
to overtake one safely, so the two-abreast issue is a red herring.

There are plenty of single-carriageway roads with lanes 15' or more wide
where it is reasonably safe to overtake one cyclist within the lane, but not
two. A very common scenario, in my experience.

Try a web search for "wide kerb lanes", which seem to be a concept approved
of by cyclists.

--
http://www.speedlimit.org.uk
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." (William
Pitt, 1783)

"ScrumpyJoe" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 14:32:09 +0000, MrBitsy wrote:

snip
We left Hitchin towards Welwyn on the B656. Those who know the road will
know its a great road for practising limit point and car control. A
couple
of miles into the road we got behind approx 15 cyclists on racing type
cycles. They were riding 3 and 4 abreast. There were no overtakes
possibilities for a mile. At no point did the cycles go to single file
to
enable the long queue of cars to pass.

According to the highway code, cyclists should

not ride more than two abreast
ride in single file on narrow or busy roads

snip

However, three other cars went for the overtake, the last two swerving
left
barely missing the cycles and the approaching car. After the opposite
traffic passed, another car overtook withing 30 yards of the right
bend -
any car would have seen a collision or the overtaking car going left
into
the cyclists.


Must admit I do dislike club cyclists from my own experience. On my route
around Richmond Park, I cycled up the trail towards about 10 club cyclists
who were clearly blocking my path. They made no attempt to move out of the
way, despite having watched my approach. They all seem to thing they are on
the Tour de France and should be given respect.


Disgracefull, stupid and selfish behaviour by car drivers and the
cyclists.

Comments?


Despite the cyclists not abiding with the highway code, the drivers should
never endanger the life of any other road user. But your closing statement
is right.

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 20:01:34 -0000, "PeterE"
wrote:

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

If there isn't room to overtake two bikes there generally isn't room
to overtake one safely, so the two-abreast issue is a red herring.

There are plenty of single-carriageway roads with lanes 15' or more wide
where it is reasonably safe to overtake one cyclist within the lane, but not
two. A very common scenario, in my experience.

not so sure. a cyclist should ride about a metre from the kerb. add
another meter for the bike/rider width. allow 1.5 metres clearance
[minimum]. that gives a total of 3.5 metres. this is about 11.5 feet
so, unless your car is narrower than than the bike, you will still
need to cross into the opposite carriageway.

Try a web search for "wide kerb lanes", which seem to be a concept approved
of by cyclists.

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 18:13:43 -0000,
Peter Connolly wrote:

I apologise for *only* having 20 years experience as an Advanced Driver, but
I've never heard of the phrase "Limit point and car control". However the
phrase itself defines that it should NEVER be done on-road; how can you
identify a limit point without exceeding it in controlled circumstances?
Where is the margin for safety if you're on the 'limit'?

Well you are way out of date then.

Roadcraft (c) Crown copyright 1997. Published for The Police Foundation ...

"How to use the limit point to help you corner"

The limit point is the furthest point along a road to which you have an
uninterrupted view of the road surface. .... This point of intersection
is known as the limit point. To drive safely you mist be able to stop on
your own side of the road within the distance you can see to be clear -
that is, the distance between you and the limit point

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/