Clipless pedals no more efficient than flat?

I found this not-entirely-ancient video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE
which posits that there's no efficiency gain
using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in
terms of rider performance.

That's a considerable surprise. It certainly
_felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps,
and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals.

Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet,
marketing?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 01:49:46 -0000 (UTC), bob prohaska
wrote:

I found this not-entirely-ancient video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE
which posits that there's no efficiency gain
using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in
terms of rider performance.

That's a considerable surprise. It certainly
_felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps,
and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals.

Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet,
marketing?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska


There have been studies made of professional cyclists pedaling
technique and, if I remember correctly, the majority pressed down and
than pulled their foot back so that force applied to the pedal was a
sort of reversed "L" pattern. If this is correct then yes cleats or
toe straps would increase the period of time that force was applied to
the pedal.
https://www.bicycling.com/training/a...ing-mechanics/

For my own use I like clips as they tend to keep my feet on the pedals
:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, August 10, 2020 at 9:37:43 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:

For my own use I like clips as they tend to keep my feet on the pedals
:-)

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that clipless pedals allow the rider to unclip one leg to momentarily rest, say, a sore Achilles tendon. The remaining leg can keep the bike going with both up and down strokes. Not for long, in my experience, but it can be useful.

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 6:45:40 PM UTC-7, Steve Weeks wrote:
On Monday, August 10, 2020 at 9:37:43 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:

For my own use I like clips as they tend to keep my feet on the pedals
:-)
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that clipless pedals allow the rider to unclip one leg to momentarily rest, say, a sore Achilles tendon. The remaining leg can keep the bike going with both up and down strokes. Not for long, in my experience, but it can be useful.
Steve, In my experience while being able to very poorly pedal with one leg is a useful trait you are hardly resting. I always end up having to stop on some cliff-side to allow my heart rate to come down to somewhat normal. Getting going again inevitably ends up with me missing the clips. Being able to bring the pedal back around for a second try is good but scary.

On 11/08/2020 03:49, bob prohaska wrote:
I found this not-entirely-ancient video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE
which posits that there's no efficiency gain
using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in
terms of rider performance.

That's a considerable surprise. It certainly
_felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps,
and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals.

Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet,
marketing?

Thanks for reading,

Never thought of it, I like them because the feel solid and stop my feet
moving about. As you say, they feel more efficient. Maybe the pros are
a victim of marketing as well.

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 3:49:48 AM UTC+2, bob prohaska wrote:
I found this not-entirely-ancient video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE
which posits that there's no efficiency gain
using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in
terms of rider performance.

That's a considerable surprise. It certainly
_felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps,
and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals.

Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet,
marketing?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

The question is what is the power loss of flat pedals considering that you feet are positioned correctly? Being able to pull up with clipless doesn't per se mean it is more efficient.

Lou

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 2:11:05 AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 3:49:48 AM UTC+2, bob prohaska wrote:
I found this not-entirely-ancient video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE
which posits that there's no efficiency gain
using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in
terms of rider performance.

That's a considerable surprise. It certainly
_felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps,
and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals.

Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet,
marketing?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

The question is what is the power loss of flat pedals considering that you feet are positioned correctly? Being able to pull up with clipless doesn't per se mean it is more efficient.

And efficiency isn't necessarily the same thing as power or speed,
especially at less than maximum effort. For non-maximum power, lower
efficiency may mean only that you'll want more snacks to replace more
calories.

I think the benefits of foot retention occur when sprinting at max
effort, and perhaps when grinding up a climb at max effort - the only
time I think it makes sense to consciously pull up in back. It's
perhaps helpful on super-bumpy surfaces, to keep feet from slipping
off pedals.

But people used to claim huge power improvement when they moved from
flat pedals to toe clips. People again claimed huge power improvements
when they went from toe clips to clipless. I do think those claims
are mistaken.

- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 7:47:10 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 2:11:05 AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 3:49:48 AM UTC+2, bob prohaska wrote:
I found this not-entirely-ancient video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE
which posits that there's no efficiency gain
using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in
terms of rider performance.

That's a considerable surprise. It certainly
_felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps,
and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals.

Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet,
marketing?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

The question is what is the power loss of flat pedals considering that you feet are positioned correctly? Being able to pull up with clipless doesn't per se mean it is more efficient.

And efficiency isn't necessarily the same thing as power or speed,
especially at less than maximum effort. For non-maximum power, lower
efficiency may mean only that you'll want more snacks to replace more
calories.

I think the benefits of foot retention occur when sprinting at max
effort, and perhaps when grinding up a climb at max effort - the only
time I think it makes sense to consciously pull up in back. It's
perhaps helpful on super-bumpy surfaces, to keep feet from slipping
off pedals.

But people used to claim huge power improvement when they moved from
flat pedals to toe clips. People again claimed huge power improvements
when they went from toe clips to clipless. I do think those claims
are mistaken.

- Frank Krygowski

Efficiency is the ratio of what get out and what you put in, simple. What you pull on the during the up stroke you putting something in and here are claims that this is not efficient. Clipless pedals are intended as a safety benefit over toe clips and to get rid of dead toes (me), Toe clips have safety benefits over platform pedals. You can't slip of your pedals. I was a very early adaptor of clipless pedals and never ever looked back. I don't claim any efficiency benefits, but I like that my feet are always in the same position, my feet don't slip of the pedals and of course it got rid of my dead toes. That's it. All those efficiency claims come from people that don't understand efficiency hence my first question: what makes flat pedals less efficient?



Lou

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 11:19:58 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 7:47:10 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 2:11:05 AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 3:49:48 AM UTC+2, bob prohaska wrote:
I found this not-entirely-ancient video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE
which posits that there's no efficiency gain
using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in
terms of rider performance.

That's a considerable surprise. It certainly
_felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps,
and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals.

Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet,
marketing?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

The question is what is the power loss of flat pedals considering that you feet are positioned correctly? Being able to pull up with clipless doesn't per se mean it is more efficient.

And efficiency isn't necessarily the same thing as power or speed,
especially at less than maximum effort. For non-maximum power, lower
efficiency may mean only that you'll want more snacks to replace more
calories.

I think the benefits of foot retention occur when sprinting at max
effort, and perhaps when grinding up a climb at max effort - the only
time I think it makes sense to consciously pull up in back. It's
perhaps helpful on super-bumpy surfaces, to keep feet from slipping
off pedals.

But people used to claim huge power improvement when they moved from
flat pedals to toe clips. People again claimed huge power improvements
when they went from toe clips to clipless. I do think those claims
are mistaken.

- Frank Krygowski

Efficiency is the ratio of what get out and what you put in, simple. What you pull on the during the up stroke you putting something in and here are claims that this is not efficient. Clipless pedals are intended as a safety benefit over toe clips and to get rid of dead toes (me), Toe clips have safety benefits over platform pedals. You can't slip of your pedals. I was a very early adaptor of clipless pedals and never ever looked back. I don't claim any efficiency benefits, but I like that my feet are always in the same position, my feet don't slip of the pedals and of course it got rid of my dead toes. That's it. All those efficiency claims come from people that don't understand efficiency hence my first question: what makes flat pedals less efficient?

Rubber flat pedals are probably less efficient -- particularly the cheap ones with limber axles.

I certainly pulled up or across the pedal when track racing, and if I pulled out, it could be catastrophic -- and thus double straps and later clipless (some racers used clipless and straps). Foot retention is important when sprinting and climbing out of the saddle. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...0.2020.1769201

JRA, its just personal preference, and like Lou, I like having a fixed foot position, particularly since I have mobile ankles, both repaired with Ti plates. Perhaps using flats would be a good training device for a more fluid pedal stroke, but I'm old and don't care about technique anymore except to the extent it keeps me upright.

And shoes can make a big difference. I remember going from Detto, Vittoria or Italia (they all blended together) bicycling/bowling shoes of yore with little steel stiffeners and nail on cleats to Duegis with wood soles and bolt-on plastic cleats. https://www.classicsteelbikes.com/wp...-1-600x400.jpg That was huge -- like going from Michelin 50s to Vittoria CGs (I never rode silks). That was probably the single biggest component improvement I ever had.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 8/11/2020 6:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I certainly pulled up or across the pedal when track racing, and if I pulled out, it could be catastrophic -- and thus double straps and later clipless (some racers used clipless and straps). Foot retention is important when sprinting and climbing out of the saddle. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...0.2020.1769201

It's a shame they didn't test stiff soled cycling shoes with toe clips.
For a long time those were the default choice for avid cyclists. They're
still my choice for long rides.

But I'll point out, that paper (apparently) did not measure efficiency.
The power improvements were huge (9.7 ± 8.7% power gain by adding toe
clips to soft shoes, and 16.6 ± 10.2% gain with rigid shoes and
clipless). On a five percent grade, that corresponds to a very
noticeable increase in speed. If those gains were due to lack of
efficiency of soft soles, those soles must have been soaking up a hell
of a lot of power. That means they should get very hot.

We can discuss this, but I suspect a lot of the gains measured were due
to the "red bikes are faster" effect. Testers were probably
preconditioned to think toe clips help a lot, and REAL cycling shoes and
clipless are what professionals use. That's a recipe for a powerful placebo.

If not that, then what made the power difference? Where would the power
have been previously lost? We should be able to talk about that in detail.

And shoes can make a big difference. I remember going from Detto, Vittoria or Italia (they all blended together) bicycling/bowling shoes of yore with little steel stiffeners and nail on cleats to Duegis with wood soles and bolt-on plastic cleats. https://www.classicsteelbikes.com/wp...-1-600x400.jpg That was huge -- like going from Michelin 50s to Vittoria CGs (I never rode silks). That was probably the single biggest component improvement I ever had.

Again, we should be able to analyze the exact source of the improvement.
The shoes are not a source of power; they are a simple device for
transmitting power from your foot to the pedal.

I don't doubt that some changes allow better biomechanics and thus
better power output. But it's hard for me to see how shoes do that.


--
- Frank Krygowski