Blame the faulty drivers of dangerous machinery. 4WDs most dangerouson road

"Eunometic" wrote in message
oups.com...

Rainbow Warrior wrote:
"TimC" wrote in
message
...
On 2005-10-25, Eunometic (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
Ofcourse the people who buy an SUV like my sister wanted the
following:
1 Seating for 7: 5 adults and foldout seats for 2 teenagers or small
adults in the back.

Minivan.

A SUV if you use US definition and should be banned.



Funny I've lost count of the number of times I've noticed "safer" "high
performance" "superior handling" vehicles not staying in their own lane,
when your pushing hard through a windy mountain road crossing double
yellow
lines on every corner and there's a slinky suspension 76 Range Rover on
your
tail that is staying on the right side of the road, doesn't it highlight
something?
Many of them can't keep between 2 lines in a parking space, yet I manage
to
fit my oversized Patrol in the same spots just fine.

This is just prejudice and nonsense. I've seen idiots in 'pocket
rocket' hatch backs (particularly chicks), utes, motorcyles, bicyles,
4WD and AWD, lowered jap fast cars, volvos etc behace anti-socially.
Everyone has a pet hate.

Your pet hate is 4WD and SUVs because you style yourself as morally
superior "green" by denigrating all people who choose such vehicles.
Greenies are tragically often simply shallow 'status seekers' as much
as anyone. The idea of being morally righteous and arrogant 'holier
than thou' is the real driver. I'll admit that there are a few
'arrogant pigs' who choose a 'truck' to bully people around but they
are quite rare.

As far as I can see the 4WD and AWD is here to stay. Infact it is very
likely that future electric and hybrid vehicles will be all wheel drive
types since this allows great increases in regenerative braking power.
So far the weakness of batteries in accepting regenerative braking has
limited this but the development of new batteries based on
nanoparticles (by toshiba), maxwell hypercapacitors is about to change
matters.

BMW has tested a 'electrically supercharged' AWD SUV that uses
hypercapacitors and an electric motors to achieve AWD, 15% better fuel
efficiency and an enormous increase in low speed acceleration.

Individual control of both the acceleration, braking and regeneration
of each wheel in concert with electronic stabillity programms is going
to be very helpfull as far as safety and handling is concerned.

If I thought there was no alternative to both greenhouse and traffic
I'd demand that we switch to electric gold buggy vehicles to get around
the suburbs and 40km/h.


AWD, particularly on electric vehicles makes enormous sense. There's a
difference between AWD and offroad though. Something like a Subaru GX sedan
(baby non-turbo brother to the WRX) makes a lot of sense. A 2½ ton truck
doesn't. I'm perplexed by proud happy claims that someone has managed to
make a hybrid SUV which has fuel efficiency figures almost as good as a
conventional sedan. Put the same tech into a conventional car, get the same
savings over a far smaller base figure and I'll be much more impressed. It's
the issues surrounding battery life and disposal that make me question
hybrids at the moment. Once they sort those questions, I'll be very
interested.

Eunometic wrote:

I'd demand that we switch to electric gold buggy

I'd like one of those 'gold' buggys. :-)

Theo

"Eunometic" wrote in message
oups.com...

Rainbow Warrior wrote:
"TimC" wrote in
message
...
On 2005-10-25, Eunometic (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
Ofcourse the people who buy an SUV like my sister wanted the
following:
1 Seating for 7: 5 adults and foldout seats for 2 teenagers or small
adults in the back.

Minivan.

A SUV if you use US definition and should be banned.

Funny I've lost count of the number of times I've noticed "safer" "high
performance" "superior handling" vehicles not staying in their own lane,
when your pushing hard through a windy mountain road crossing double
yellow
lines on every corner and there's a slinky suspension 76 Range Rover on
your
tail that is staying on the right side of the road, doesn't it highlight
something?
Many of them can't keep between 2 lines in a parking space, yet I manage
to
fit my oversized Patrol in the same spots just fine.

This is just prejudice and nonsense. I've seen idiots in 'pocket
rocket' hatch backs (particularly chicks), utes, motorcyles, bicyles,
4WD and AWD, lowered jap fast cars, volvos etc behace anti-socially.
Everyone has a pet hate.

Your pet hate is 4WD and SUVs because you style yourself as morally
superior "green" by denigrating all people who choose such vehicles.
Greenies are tragically often simply shallow 'status seekers' as much
as anyone. The idea of being morally righteous and arrogant 'holier
than thou' is the real driver. I'll admit that there are a few
'arrogant pigs' who choose a 'truck' to bully people around but they
are quite rare.

I like 4wd's actually and own one




As far as I can see the 4WD and AWD is here to stay. Infact it is very
likely that future electric and hybrid vehicles will be all wheel drive
types since this allows great increases in regenerative braking power.
So far the weakness of batteries in accepting regenerative braking has
limited this but the development of new batteries based on
nanoparticles (by toshiba), maxwell hypercapacitors is about to change
matters.

BMW has tested a 'electrically supercharged' AWD SUV that uses
hypercapacitors and an electric motors to achieve AWD, 15% better fuel
efficiency and an enormous increase in low speed acceleration.

Individual control of both the acceleration, braking and regeneration
of each wheel in concert with electronic stabillity programms is going
to be very helpfull as far as safety and handling is concerned.

If I thought there was no alternative to both greenhouse and traffic
I'd demand that we switch to electric gold buggy vehicles to get around
the suburbs and 40km/h.

"Tom N" wrote in message
...
Rainbow Warrior wrote:

"Tom N" wrote
I think the 5% duty on 4wds should be increased to 10% like other
cars and that 5% duty should apply to cars with 5 star ANCAP or
EuroNCAP crash rating that also have side, curtain and front airbags,
plus maybe some criteria based on pedestrian crash friendliness.

I'm yet to get this mythical tax break on any second hand 4wd I've
owned, stamp duty is same as cars up here.

It's import duty. It applies to the price of new cars, and the price of
second hand 4WDs will be reduced as they are in competition with new 4WDs.

It hardly effects my desision though to buy one and seeing more second hand
ones change hand than new the point is moot really.





http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/r...-04/04rn17.htm

"Resound" wrote in message
...

Well I didn't come up with the 15 metre figure, but basic geometry says
that the higher the whole driver/mirror/back window arrangement is, the
wider the area is in which you can't see anything. The bottom sills of the
windows on vehicles commonly referred to as "4WD" vehicles (and what IS
your preferred term then?) tend to be substantially higher than those on
conventional cars. Thinking about the general shape of the Cherokee, I can
see that it would have better visibility than most other 4WDs as it has a
large and low glass area. I'd still say try the white post trick and see
how far you get, especially in your normal backing out of the driveway
mode, not hoiked up out of your seat with your head against the roof
lining. In any case, "Landcruiser" was a generic term in this particular
usage. I could have referred to any other similar vehicle. While I can't
recall the specific numbers, the original article did cite some that
demonstrated that this type of vehicle is vastly over-represented in this
sort of incident.

Utes have better visibility than wagons or sedans, unless loaded.

My personal take on off road vehicles is that is when they're used as such
on a regular basis, I don't actually have that much of a problem with
them. A couple of months ago I spotted a less than brand new (early 90s)
TDi Rangie with tyres that actually looked like they were chosen with
function rather than form in mind. No bullbar, but a fairly stonkin' PTO
winch. The whole thing reeked of utility and it did not for one second
irritate me as it was clearly used on a regular basis for the purpose for
which it was designed. It's when they're used entirely, or very nearly so
in an urban evironment that they really start to **** me off. The
justification for their usage seems to be more or less completely based on
the notion that they're safer. That safety isn't from better passive
safety features such as air bags or anti-intrusion measures and it's
certainly not from better handling or brakes, it's based on the idea that
you can make the other person suck up the bulk of the energy from the
collision. Never mind that that amount of energy would have been
substantially less had they been driving a lighter vehicle, especially
given that they would have braked to a significantly slower speed before
the collision. That along with the stupid amounts of fuel they use(which
is becoming increasingly scarce and which in turn produces the filth in
the air that is the one real thing I dislike about riding or walking in
the city) and the fact that they screw visibility on the road for everyone
else all speaks of a "the hell with everyone else, I'm fine" attitude.

Trouble is I take off my $300 each mud tyres and fitt roadies, and I'm
labelled a Toorok tractor or show pony by anti 4wd experts who don't even
know the difference betweenn a A/T & M/T.


Now I'll cheerfully admit that this is, in several points, a broad
generalisation. It's a broad generalisation with pretty wide applicability
though. Sure, there are plenty of people who buy this sort of vehicle, use
it appropriately and are well aware of the capabilities and limitations of
those vehicles and so drive them accordingly. They're in the minority
however. A lot of people who own one seem to think that they're driving an
unusually butch Hyundai Lantra. This is particularly in metro areas, so if
you're in a rural area, this probably doesn't apply where you are. As
someone who is a notably vunerable road user who negotiates traffic
through the metro areas for about 250-300km/week, I see a lot of different
types of drivers and vehicles and I pay close attention to them because,
as one member of this group (aus.bicycle) recently found out, they can do
stupid unpredictable things and it's not insurance details you worry about
after polishing the road with your face. The result of this close
attention is that you become aware of what sort of drivers and vehicles
represent a high level of likely threat and which do not. Now in general,
most cars are fine. You learn though to beware of Falcon and Commodores
from the "performance" end of the range, courier vans, gold coloured
Mercedes (dunno why, but they'll go where they please and screw everyone
else and the rules of the road) and shiny (the shiner, the more dangerous)
4WDs with either the tubby bloke in the shirt and tie or crisply ironed
polo shirt OR the prissily over made-up, overdressed skinny woman in her
late 40s or older who just might outmass the tubby bloke by virtues of the
"product" in her hair. Extra bonus points for likely random idiocy if they
have spawn smearing snot over the inside of the back windows. You pick
them a couple of hundred metres off and watch them like a hawk.

Yep just because some aus.cars expert proclaims they handle bad compared to
the sports cars they have driven for the last 10 years doesn't mean others
don't have better skills than them in such heavier vehicles.

Note that I'm among the first to admit that there are idiot cyclists on
the road. There are also an ever increasing number of cyclists who are
extremely inexperienced at riding on the road even if they've been driving
for years. That guy with his knees flapping in the breeze who wobbled
through a red light on the wrong side of the road at 8pm with no lights or
helmet? Yeah, I'm swearing at him just as much as you. He makes me look
bad and he's a menace to everyone around him. The courier doing 35kph on
the footpath through pedestrians? Yep, I'm swearing at him as well for the
same reason. The bulk of experienced cyclists obey the rules of the road
and ride in as predictable fashion as possible. We know that doing so,
along with being co-operative with motorists (whether they realise it or
not) is what keeps us safe. Sometimes that means that we do things that
aren't immediately obvious or intuitive. Read this:
http://bicyclesafe.com/ to see why we don't hide in the gutter etc.

Yeah, actually, I do think about these things, thanks very much.

Resound wrote:
"Noddy" wrote in message
...

"fasgnadh" wrote in message
...


For a 4WD its over 15 metres.

****ing bull****

What "4wd" would that be you ractionary ****?

--
Regards,
Noddy.


Oh look, we've roused them

We're talking about toddler height objects. Try driving away from a white
post in your lard arse Landcruiser until you can see the whole reflector at
the top. Then stop and see how far from it you are.Everything between it and
the back of your vehicle is where you can't see a child. And I think the
word you're desperately groping for is "reactionary". Why yes, I actually DO
react to things. You know...by thinking about them for example.

Who wants to take bets on an incoherent response or none at all?


No doubt there are problems with rear visibilty from vehicles but it is
not 4WD specific.
Rear visibility is worse from my wifes Corolla hatch than from my Hilux
ute, the LH rear of the Corolla has a bad blind spot and so do many
other small hatchbacks.
Maybe a time will come when reversing cameras are mandatory on all
vehicles but they won't be much good if dickhead drivers don't use them.



Daryl

Theo Bekkers wrote:
fasgnadh wrote:


A diahatsu charade has a rear blind spot of a few metres when a
two year old is standing behind it.

For a 4WD its over 15 metres.


According to the ABC last night, 3 metres for the Charade, large 4WD 20
metres, Commodore 17 metres.


What is a large 4WD?
If they can name a Charade and Commodore which are very different
vehicle why use a generic term like "large 4WD", 20mts becomes a
meaningless number if its supposedly applies to all 4WD's.
"Large 4WD" is a term that encompasses a very big variety of makes and
models proving that whoever comes up with this crap has NFI.
Too bad they only mention examples which match their prejudices, why
would they ignore the very poor rear visibility from a Toyota Corolla
hatch which is much worse than a Toyota Hilux.



Daryl

On 2005-10-25, Eunometic (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

TimC wrote:
Pretty hard to beat an Mercedes Benz ML 270 CDI turbo diesel. It even
beats most 2L cars for fuel efficiency and goes like a rocket. It's
supurb for shopping and also takes much of the discomfort out of speed
humps.

Goes like a rocket in the shopping centre car park, I take it?

No. It's power is of great value on long trips when it is loaded up.
Ever heard of hills and overtaking? Ever taken a long Journey
interestate or country?

Yep. I've lived most of my life in various parts of rural Australia,
and I fairly frequently drove to the opposite end of the state and
country (only North South so far, not East West. I can't see myself
staying in the car for more than two consequtive days) for things like
University and visiting family. Our cars to date have been Toyota
Coronas, Datsun 180b's, Mitsibishi Colts (and then my mum's last car
was actually shiny, can't remember the make). No air conditioning in
45 degree heat! And then I get into some luser's car in the city,
where they wind up the windows, and turn on the air conditioner,
despite it being 22 degrees outside.

Automatic gearboxes, power steering, and air conditioning make you
stupid

Oh, and a tank on petrol for the Colt got me over half way to
Coonabarabran from Melbourne. That's somewhere in the region of a 30L
tank. That's 600km. That little car relocated me to two separate
capital cities before Victoria would refuse to register it anymore.

Speed bumps aren't meant to be uncomfortable. If they are, then you
are going too fast. If, however, you can't feel them, then they
aren't serving their purpose to slow you down.

Speed humps are BS. They create an enormous amount of noise for
residents as cars brake and then accelerate.

No, aggressive ****s in souped up lawnmowers are BS.

I live on a road out here in bogan country with many roundabouts. The
best sound is a vrooom pff-f-ft vrooom pff-f-ft vrooom, crash, tinkle.
Sometimes followed by drunken abuse.

You aren't one of those 4WDers who think "ooh, that gutter looks to be
placed slightly inconvenient, I'll just drive over it"? "Oooh, my
parking skills aren't very good, and I can't complete this parallel
parking in 3 steps, so I'll just drive on and off the gutter a couple
of times until I get it right"?

Mostly nonsense and hype.

Well, I've personally seen that kind of behaviour every week on
average. And it's usually a 4WD doing it. Glad my taxes don't pay
for those curbs. Because we all know that cyclists don't pay council
rate and taxes now, don't we?

--
TimC
Octopuses don't like astro turf much. That's a *great* piece of trivia
to drop into conversations. I must remember it.
-- Lloyd Gilbert in AFAFDA

"Theo Bekkers" wrote in message
...

According to the ABC last night, 3 metres for the Charade, large 4WD 20
metres, Commodore 17 metres.

What a load of crap

My driveway is 22 metres from the footpath to my garage door, and if the ABC
thinks that I couldn't sit in anything at one end and not see the ground at
the other they're playing with themselves

--
Regards,
Noddy.

"Eunometic" wrote in message

They all handle like a milk van, are sluggish and stressfull on long
trips (drive up some hills in one). The best I've seen is the
Chrysler Voyager and its not being promoted in Australia.

It's also got a pretty crappy right hand drive conversion as well.

The problem with a great many minivans is that they're pretty underpowered
for their intended task, the wind knocks the absolute **** out of them on
the highway, they're about as comfortable to drive as a dentist's chair and
they have worse rear visibility than almost anything else.

--
Regards,
Noddy.