A more reasonable way of EPO testing

In article ,
meb wrote:

Tom Kunich Wrote:
"Sandy" wrote in message
...
Dans le message de news:2KF7i.6538$XC3.500@trnddc04,
Caroline a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
"Sandy" wrote in message
...
Dans le message de news:KEz7i.1902$d63.1325@trnddc06,
Caroline a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Seriously, if *any* control measures are to be placed
successfully,
there must be ways for those who fall outside the norms to
appeal.
If someone can document that they have a rare condition, an
exception could be made.

Google "Santhi Soundarajan" and see how natural rare conditions
are
treated by the IOC.

--
Sandy

Ce n'est pas que j'ai peur de la mort.
Je veux seulement ne pas être là
quand elle arrivera.


'-) LOL! And there are how many transgender competitors in
cylcing?
I *probably* wouldn't have much of a problem with a female to male
competitor competing with males, but a male to female competing
with
females could have an unfair edge. Just my guess.

Caroliine

You didn't read enough, Caroline. She is not transgendered.

She is, however, a case that would require special dispensation - a
genetic
man who never developed into either a man or a woman due to a known
medical
condition in which the body doesn't respond to testosterone in early
childhood.

What is important is that Santhi has all of the physical capacity OF A
WOMAN
because the testosterone she produces cannot be used by her body. She
should
be given a special case dispensation by the sports authorities.

Sounds like she isn't a "genetic man" either. As best I understand it
she is XXYY although one story believes XXY.

Has the IOC itself addressed this issue or merely the Olympic Council
of Asia?

Considering that the IOC has now ruled that M-to-F transsexuals can now
compete as women as long as their surgery was at least two years ago and
they maintain their hormone therapy, I can't see how they would possibly
DQ Santhi.

I'm telling you: gender-neutral handicapped competition is the future of
cycling!

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

in message .net, Tom
Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:

However, it would have the great merit of not caring whether your
enhanced
haematocrit was caused by physical apparatus (an altitude tent) or
chemical apparatus (EPO). I find those athletes who rail against 'drug
cheats' while using altitude tents nauseatingly hypocritical.

Well, not so much. Â*You don't inject altitude tents into your body. Â*But
maybe I'm unaware of the latest trends?

Quit being logical Caroline. What Simon is saying is that it is OK for
teams to train at high altitude and acquire all the benefits of such
training but it is artificially incorrect to sleep in a hypoxia tent for
25% of the cost. That way we can guarantee that only the largest teams
with the best laid plans can hope to field the strongest riders.

********.

The benefits of training at high altitude last only a few days when you get
back down to low altitude. So it may help people at a one day
track-and-field event (or, to be fair, a crit) but it makes absolutely
zero difference to the outcome of a stage race. In any case, Caroline's
suggestion would also penalise those who trained at high altitude - any
artificial means of increasing haematocrit.

If EPO is cheating, then hypoxia tents are cheating. If hypoxia tents
aren't cheating, then EPO isn't cheating. They're just alternative ways of
achieving precisely the same result.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

I shall continue to be an impossible person so long as those
who are now possible remain possible -- Michael Bakunin

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
I'm telling you: gender-neutral handicapped competition is the future of
cycling!

Well try cutting of the relevant components and then get back to us with a
race report.

Here's a clue - the phoney "blood test" that they supposedly ran in France
with Lance's blood that they claimed contained EPO showed a hematocrit of
38%.

Please give the source for this.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Here's a clue - the phoney "blood test" that they supposedly ran in
France
with Lance's blood that they claimed contained EPO showed a hematocrit of
38%.

Please give the source for this.

I can't remember the source. It was part of the report that they provided
when they did that claimed EPO test from 1999. Somewhere in there they'd
gotten a blood test for Armstrong and it was 38%. Of course they didn't
advertise that because it makes the EPO claim look pretty silly.

"meb" wrote in message
...

Sounds like she isn't a "genetic man" either. As best I understand it
she is XXYY although one story believes XXY.

As far as I know there are special cases of XXY and XYY but Santhi is
neither. She is an XY that never developed into a man because of a natural
allergy to testosterone.

Has the IOC itself addressed this issue or merely the Olympic Council
of Asia?

Placing reality in front of committees is sort of like putting a mirror in
front of a vampire - they will do almost anything to avoid addressing the
problems.

"Simon Brooke" wrote in message
...
in message .net, Tom
Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:

However, it would have the great merit of not caring whether your
enhanced
haematocrit was caused by physical apparatus (an altitude tent) or
chemical apparatus (EPO). I find those athletes who rail against 'drug
cheats' while using altitude tents nauseatingly hypocritical.

Well, not so much. You don't inject altitude tents into your body. But
maybe I'm unaware of the latest trends?

Quit being logical Caroline. What Simon is saying is that it is OK for
teams to train at high altitude and acquire all the benefits of such
training but it is artificially incorrect to sleep in a hypoxia tent for
25% of the cost. That way we can guarantee that only the largest teams
with the best laid plans can hope to field the strongest riders.

********.

The benefits of training at high altitude last only a few days when you
get
back down to low altitude.

Actually they last the lifetime of a Red Blood Cell or thereabouts - about 3
months.

So it may help people at a one day
track-and-field event (or, to be fair, a crit) but it makes absolutely
zero difference to the outcome of a stage race.

Sorry Simon but you don't understand the mechanism very well. Altitude
causes an adatation by the body to maintain an exygen level in the body's
cells. It causes a couple of things to happen - one is that the number of
red blood cells increase, another is something they haven't gotten a handle
on yet - people who train at altitude don't generate nearly as much lactic
acid. And red blood cells somehow become more efficient at carrying oxygen
as well.

All in all it's pretty effective training though using hyperbaric chambers
works slightly better - not physically but the speed at which you get to
high altitude fitness.

If EPO is cheating, then hypoxia tents are cheating. If hypoxia tents
aren't cheating, then EPO isn't cheating. They're just alternative ways of
achieving precisely the same result.

Can't say I agree with you Simon. EPO is a naturally occurring hormone in
the body. Enhancing that chemically is both unenthical and medically
dangerous. As Pantani demonstrated on a couple of occasions, he was pumping
so much EPO into himself that his body shut off all production of it and he
then went into a tailspin with his hematocrit hitting 12% at one point - why
he wasn't dead only means that his personal doctors starting giving him
transfussions until his body reasserted itself.

Altitude chambers are the poor man's way to train at altitude. Mind you, I
don't like either, but if you allow one you should allow the other.

On Thu, 31 May 2007 14:55:29 GMT, "Caroline"
wrote:


Would it be absolutely neccessary to test *every* rider? I don't think so.
There would have to be a margin that would test any riders who might slip in
as top finishers late in the game, but no reason to test all.

And so when you said exactly one post ago that it would be easier to
collect and analyze the blood from 'all athletes', you didn't mean
every rider? Or are you arguing that 'every rider' is a larger set
than 'all athletes'? BTW, this is fine - it is known here as the KG
Master Fattie argument, but you need to try to be clear about that up
front.


Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...