The doping stuff makes it hard to be a fan

just bob wrote:
I'm sure few of you give a hoot but I wanted to say I'm so ****ed I'm
considering not watching the tdf this year.

A little background I feel is appropriate. I'm just a fan, and just a fan of
the tdf and now the Tour of California because it's in the Bay Area where I
live.

I have watched the tdf for the last seven years or so pretty religiously,
even downloading the torrents of every stage last year. Yes, I only started
watching when Lance was winning so I guess I'm a fair weathered fan. But an
emotional one. The heavy tv coverage on cable was amazing - I just could not
stop watching and my dad and enjoy talking about the stages etc.

My dad has always been a bigger fan. He re-married a French woman and I
think he enjoys the sport-bonding with her during July. Last year I watched
and really enjoyed it, too, but I don't think it's because an American won.
I really don't care as long as it's interesting. I wanted to see who was
going to take over the mantle. My real sports heroes have always been
international stars like F1 racers Senna, Mansell, Hakkinen. F1 sucks now
and I've been a bigger MotoGP nut because of Valentino Rossi and but by no
small degree the integrity of the sport.

But I am so ****ed about the doping thing last year, when he asked yesterday
I told my father I can't bear to watch and would not waste my time and get
emotionally involved. Mostly because I do not know who to believe.

From what little I read, my impression is Lance believes the testing system
is flawed. Yet he did not come out to support Floyd, as far as I can tell. I
read in the paper earlier this year that Floyd had that thing to raise money
in the Bay area during the Tour of California and Lance was not there to
support him. I drew my own conclusions, and no one in the papers every
seemed to put that together. I feel, if he thought Floyd was clean, I think
Lance should have been the #1 witness. I think the whole country would have
stood up for Floyd if Lance had gotten on the public bandwagon. So WTF? You
are either passionate about your sport and believe or you don't. Something
stinks here.

It's these mixed signals which has me confused to the point where I feel
like if I watch I'm just going to have my experience and emotions crushed by
crap that happens off the track.

I guess this is kinda how some baseball fans feel, after the strike and
their own doping scandals.

You gotta keep it in perspective. Cycling has found tons of dopers
because cycling is testing for dopers. If you don't look for them,
there's very little chance you'll find them. There are dopers in
other sports, but many of the other sports aren't testing for them.
There's no off-season testing for Major League Baseball and National
Basketball Association because the players unions are strong enough
to prevent it.

I've heard various people opine that if cycling would just withdraw from
the Olympics, they could tell WADA to go bleep themselves. But in my
mind, that statement begs this question: how come professional baseball
and basketball, both Olympic sports, don't have to submit to the
same WADA dope controls that cycling does?

~bob s.

On Jul 7, 1:23 am, bob sullivan wrote:
just bob wrote:
I'm sure few of you give a hoot but I wanted to say I'm so ****ed I'm
considering not watching the tdf this year.

A little background I feel is appropriate. I'm just a fan, and just a fan of
the tdf and now the Tour of California because it's in the Bay Area where I
live.

I have watched the tdf for the last seven years or so pretty religiously,
even downloading the torrents of every stage last year. Yes, I only started
watching when Lance was winning so I guess I'm a fair weathered fan. But an
emotional one. The heavy tv coverage on cable was amazing - I just could not
stop watching and my dad and enjoy talking about the stages etc.

My dad has always been a bigger fan. He re-married a French woman and I
think he enjoys the sport-bonding with her during July. Last year I watched
and really enjoyed it, too, but I don't think it's because an American won.
I really don't care as long as it's interesting. I wanted to see who was
going to take over the mantle. My real sports heroes have always been
international stars like F1 racers Senna, Mansell, Hakkinen. F1 sucks now
and I've been a bigger MotoGP nut because of Valentino Rossi and but by no
small degree the integrity of the sport.

But I am so ****ed about the doping thing last year, when he asked yesterday
I told my father I can't bear to watch and would not waste my time and get
emotionally involved. Mostly because I do not know who to believe.

From what little I read, my impression is Lance believes the testing system
is flawed. Yet he did not come out to support Floyd, as far as I can tell. I
read in the paper earlier this year that Floyd had that thing to raise money
in the Bay area during the Tour of California and Lance was not there to
support him. I drew my own conclusions, and no one in the papers every
seemed to put that together. I feel, if he thought Floyd was clean, I think
Lance should have been the #1 witness. I think the whole country would have
stood up for Floyd if Lance had gotten on the public bandwagon. So WTF? You
are either passionate about your sport and believe or you don't. Something
stinks here.

It's these mixed signals which has me confused to the point where I feel
like if I watch I'm just going to have my experience and emotions crushed by
crap that happens off the track.

I guess this is kinda how some baseball fans feel, after the strike and
their own doping scandals.

You gotta keep it in perspective. Cycling has found tons of dopers
because cycling is testing for dopers. If you don't look for them,
there's very little chance you'll find them. There are dopers in
other sports, but many of the other sports aren't testing for them.
There's no off-season testing for Major League Baseball and National
Basketball Association because the players unions are strong enough
to prevent it.

I've heard various people opine that if cycling would just withdraw from
the Olympics, they could tell WADA to go bleep themselves. But in my
mind, that statement begs this question: how come professional baseball
and basketball, both Olympic sports, don't have to submit to the
same WADA dope controls that cycling does?

~bob s.

What about Dressage? I think there could be a movie in there "They
Test Horses Don't They?"

-ilan

In article . com,
wrote:

What about Dressage? I think there could be a movie in there "They
Test Horses Don't They?"

No, the movie would (still) be called "They Shoot Horses, Don't They?" but I guess
that would be a reference to destructive testing.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

On Jul 6, 8:29 pm, Howard Kveck wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:

What about Dressage? I think there could be a movie in there "They
Test Horses Don't They?"

No, the movie would (still) be called "They Shoot Horses, Don't They?" but I guess
that would be a reference to destructive testing.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Or in reference to doping the horses, ala Holmes 7% solution.
Bill C

Howard Kveck wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:

What about Dressage? I think there could be a movie in there "They
Test Horses Don't They?"

No, the movie would (still) be called "They Shoot Horses, Don't They?" but I guess
that would be a reference to destructive testing.

Wouldn't it be called "They Shoot *Up* Horses, Don't They?"?

~bob s.

"John Forrest Tomlinson" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 10:54:09 -0700, "just bob" kilbyfan@aoldotcom
wrote:

I'm sure few of you give a hoot but I wanted to say I'm so ****ed I'm
considering not watching the tdf this year.

So don't.

It's these mixed signals which has me
confused to the point where I feel
like if I watch I'm just going to have my
experience and emotions crushed by
crap that happens off the track.

Crushed? It's a bike race. Get some perspective.

I don't know... some fans are very passionate and of course some take it
over the edge. I'm somewhere in the middle: A few times a year I like to go
wild and get into the moment. Like when I attend MotoGP, some people like me
enjoy cheering and blowing the air horns while others are very reserved
wished people like me would STFU.

Or, did I just get trolled.

It's a fine line, isn't it? I was very surprised to see so many honest
replies and no flames. It tell ms the doping thing cuts to the core of the
fans, and it's not something they are willing to ignore for the love of the
sport.

On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 04:07:16 -0700, "just bob" kilbyfan@aoldotcom
wrote:

I was very surprised to see so many honest
replies and no flames. It tell ms the doping thing cuts to the core of the
fans, and it's not something they are willing to ignore for the love of the
sport.

Oh, I'm certain there are plenty of fans, especially fans in the
traditional cycling countries of France, Italy, Belgium and the
Netherlands are quire willing to ignore the doping issue.

After all, they've been ignoring it for 50 or 80 years.
--
JT
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"John Forrest Tomlinson" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 04:07:16 -0700, "just bob" kilbyfan@aoldotcom
wrote:

I was very surprised to see so many honest
replies and no flames. It tell ms the doping thing cuts to the core of the
fans, and it's not something they are willing to ignore for the love of
the
sport.

Oh, I'm certain there are plenty of fans, especially fans in the
traditional cycling countries of France, Italy, Belgium and the
Netherlands are quire willing to ignore the doping issue.

After all, they've been ignoring it for 50 or 80 years.

No, they - we - didn't ignore it, but kept more in proportion than the Pat
McQuaid and his ilk today. As I wrote before, Tim Krabbé, the author of "The
Rider" said on Flemish TV: "There are 67 things more interesting in cycling
than doping." I think most fans in the traditional cycling countries of
France, Italy, Belgium and the Netherlands basically agree.

Benjo

No, they - we - didn't ignore it, but kept more in proportion than the Pat
McQuaid and his ilk today. As I wrote before, Tim Krabbé, the author of "The
Rider" said on Flemish TV: "There are 67 things more interesting in cycling
than doping." I think most fans in the traditional cycling countries of
France, Italy, Belgium and the Netherlands basically agree.

Benjo


Doping the 68th most interesting thing in cycling? (Or any sport?) I
think that's only true *if* every last pro rider is on drugs.

If not -- and I think the Riis scandal, particularly his rise from
journeyman obscurity all the way to the pinnacle of the pro ranks,
strongly suggests that many of the other riders were not on drugs --
then the most interesting thing about cycling is precisely the mindset
of those who are not doping. And also those who were already near the
top (unlike Riis at the start of his career), know that only some guys
are doping, and choose to dope anyway to reach the very top. The
moral drama that must be unfolding in the pro ranks is common to every
field where cheating is possible, but I think is endlessly
fascinating. (My thoughts on this are pretty much all deposited he
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shayan...l_b_49551.html)

Likewise I think it's the most interesting question in baseball too,
where it also appears form the limited evidence that some large but
sub-90% portion of the pros are doped up -- meaning some code of
silence is at work, even among the numerous clean athletes. For god's
sake, every third baseball player is religious enough to be a tither
-- and they maintain Omerta too? What is going on in their heads? I'm
always reminded of Dennis Christopher's character in Breaking Away
coming home after the big race against the Italians and telling his
mother "everyone cheats." And yet he didn't, and he didn't stop trying
either. Is the presence of moral hazard the basis of the common appeal
of sports, rather than its meritocratic aspects? Fas-cin-ating.--
Shayana Kadidal

In article ,
"just bob" kilbyfan@aoldotcom wrote:

I don't know... some fans are very passionate and of course some take it
over the edge. I'm somewhere in the middle: A few times a year I like to go
wild and get into the moment. Like when I attend MotoGP, some people like me
enjoy cheering and blowing the air horns while others are very reserved
wished people like me would STFU.

Nothing says "I'm excited by and like this event" quite like blowing an airhorn.
So the next time you go to the opera...

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?