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  #31  
Old July 15th 11, 09:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Mike Vandeman[_4_]
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On Jul 15, 10:01*am, "Ronsonic" wrote:
"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message

...
On Jul 14, 7:48 am, SMS wrote:

On 7/12/2011 5:08 PM, James wrote:
This is a shame since if he could be educated to direct his efforts
against the trail users that cause the most damage he would give up on
mountain bikes and concentrate on equestrians.


The trail users who cause the most damage, BY FAR, are mountain
bikers. They travel much farther & faster than anyone else.

What makes you think that "farther & faster" equals more damaging. Farther
and faster means more efficient, less weight and less impact.


BS. If you do X damage in one mile, then you do 10X damage in 10
miles. Did you flunk grade school math?

Where you startled by a rude cyclist out on a trail and this is what it's
all about?


It's all explained on my website. Do your homework. ALL mountain
biking is rude, whether it's in my presence or not.
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  #32  
Old July 15th 11, 09:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Mike Vandeman[_4_]
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On Jul 15, 10:03*am, "Ronsonic" wrote:
"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message

...
On Jul 14, 1:02 pm, Peter Cole wrote:

You obviously haven't studied the SCIENCE (REAL science, not the JUNK
science created by mountain bikers). The SCIENCE shows that mountain
bikers have greater impacts on erosion, plants, and animals, partly
because they generally travel several times as FAR and as FAST as
other trail users, multiplying their impacts. (Seehttp://mjvande/nfshost.com/scb7.htm.)
Besides that, horses evolved in North America, and hence arguably have
the right to go wherever they want to. BIKES, on the other hand, and
inanimate OBJECTS, and have no rights whatsoever. And there is no
right to mountain bike (seehttp://mjvande/nfshost.com/mtb10.htm).

Horses were EXTINCT in North America and every single one of them is
foreign.


Can't you read? "horses evolved in North America, and hence arguably
have
the right to go wherever they want to". Did you flunk grade school
English, as well?

I agree with you on a philosophic basis, bikes are indeed inanimate and if I
ever see one out on a trail on its own, I'll order it off the trail.


There is no right to bring a bike onto a trail.
  #33  
Old July 15th 11, 09:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Mike Vandeman[_4_]
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On Jul 15, 10:14*am, "Ronsonic" wrote:
"SMS" wrote in message

...

On 7/14/2011 4:18 PM, Chalo wrote:


And for every one of us in this discussion who has the integrity of
the natural environment at heart, there are probably a crowd of folks
whose idea of outdoors adventure involves gratuitously murdering wild
animals for entertainment, or making a huge amount of motor noise and
pollution.


What's funny-sad is that MV probably does have the integrity of the
natural environment at heart, but he lacks the knowledge and personal
integrity to make a difference for it.


This whole conversation is absolutely bizarre to this Floridian. Here the
greatest threat to our wildlands and their flora and fauna are wild / feral
pigs. You can use an army of motorcycles to drive entire herds of horses
each dragging a mountain bike through our forests and marshes and it
wouldn't cause the damage these hogs do. Seriously. This is paper cuts to
chainsaws.


BS. 99% of our parks have no pigs, but lots of erosion-causing
mountain bikers. You are grasping at straws.
  #34  
Old July 16th 11, 01:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
RonSonic
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"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message
...
On Jul 15, 10:14 am, "Ronsonic" wrote:
"SMS" wrote in message

...

On 7/14/2011 4:18 PM, Chalo wrote:


And for every one of us in this discussion who has the integrity of
the natural environment at heart, there are probably a crowd of folks
whose idea of outdoors adventure involves gratuitously murdering wild
animals for entertainment, or making a huge amount of motor noise and
pollution.


What's funny-sad is that MV probably does have the integrity of the
natural environment at heart, but he lacks the knowledge and personal
integrity to make a difference for it.


This whole conversation is absolutely bizarre to this Floridian. Here the
greatest threat to our wildlands and their flora and fauna are wild /
feral
pigs. You can use an army of motorcycles to drive entire herds of horses
each dragging a mountain bike through our forests and marshes and it
wouldn't cause the damage these hogs do. Seriously. This is paper cuts to
chainsaws.


BS. 99% of our parks have no pigs, but lots of erosion-causing
mountain bikers. You are grasping at straws.

I'm not grasping at a damn thing. Your parks might be another matter. We
have a pig problem.


  #35  
Old July 17th 11, 07:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
SMS
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On 7/15/2011 10:14 AM, Ronsonic wrote:

This whole conversation is absolutely bizarre to this Floridian. Here the
greatest threat to our wildlands and their flora and fauna are wild / feral
pigs. You can use an army of motorcycles to drive entire herds of horses
each dragging a mountain bike through our forests and marshes and it
wouldn't cause the damage these hogs do. Seriously. This is paper cuts to
chainsaws.


Well in many states, including California, they definitely have problems
with horses. It's not just the enormous trail damage (it's estimated
that one horse does more damage than 50 mountain bikes or 50 hikers),
but the mess, the smell, and the pollution. If we could buy each
equestrian a mountain bike to ride our parks would be much better off.

The problem with MV is that he hasn't studied any science because he
knows that the actual science totally contradicts his position. It's
called "argumentum ad ignorantiam" (argument from ignorance).

Every study shows that the impact of mountain bikers on erosion, plants,
and wildlife is less than or equal to the damage of hikers, and far less
than the damage of horses.

Mountain bikers move through an area quickly, minimizing the time that
they are disrupting wildlife, compared to hikers. Here's a similar
example: today we were kayaking in Elkhorn Slough near Monterey. One of
the volunteer docents that travels around by kayak asked us to move more
quickly through an area with sea otters (we were stopped watching them).
She said that to minimize the disruption to their activities it's better
to go through the area quickly. This is the same thing that mountain
bikers do.


  #36  
Old July 17th 11, 08:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Mike Vandeman[_4_]
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Posts: 1,755
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On Jul 16, 11:35*pm, SMS wrote:
On 7/15/2011 10:14 AM, Ronsonic wrote:

This whole conversation is absolutely bizarre to this Floridian. Here the
greatest threat to our wildlands and their flora and fauna are wild / feral
pigs. You can use an army of motorcycles to drive entire herds of horses
each dragging a mountain bike through our forests and marshes and it
wouldn't cause the damage these hogs do. Seriously. This is paper cuts to
chainsaws.


Well in many states, including California, they definitely have problems
with horses. It's not just the enormous trail damage (it's estimated
that one horse does more damage than 50 mountain bikes or 50 hikers),
but the mess, the smell, and the pollution. If we could buy each
equestrian a mountain bike to ride our parks would be much better off.

The problem with MV is that he hasn't studied any science because he
knows that the actual science totally contradicts his position. It's
called "argumentum ad ignorantiam" (argument from ignorance).

Every study shows that the impact of mountain bikers on erosion, plants,
and wildlife is less than or equal to the damage of hikers, and far less
than the damage of horses.

Mountain bikers move through an area quickly, minimizing the time that
they are disrupting wildlife, compared to hikers. Here's a similar
example: today we were kayaking in Elkhorn Slough near Monterey. One of
the volunteer docents that travels around by kayak asked us to move more
quickly through an area with sea otters (we were stopped watching them).
She said that to minimize the disruption to their activities it's better
to go through the area quickly. This is the same thing that mountain
bikers do.


If you knew ANYTHING about the research, you would know that NOT ONE
study addresses moving quickly. You are bluffing. The Wisdom et al
study proved that mountain bikers have more impact on elk than either
hikers or equestrians. Moving quickly didn't help them one bit. Like
ALL mountain bikers, you don't know what you are talking about, and
substitute LIES instead. No surprize there!
  #37  
Old July 17th 11, 09:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Chalo
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Posts: 5,093
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Mike Vandeman wrote:

SMS wrote:

Ronsonic wrote:

This whole conversation is absolutely bizarre to this Floridian. Here the
greatest threat to our wildlands and their flora and fauna are wild / feral
pigs. You can use an army of motorcycles to drive entire herds of horses
each dragging a mountain bike through our forests and marshes and it
wouldn't cause the damage these hogs do. Seriously. This is paper cuts to
chainsaws.


Well in many states, including California, they definitely have problems
with horses. It's not just the enormous trail damage (it's estimated
that one horse does more damage than 50 mountain bikes or 50 hikers),
but the mess, the smell, and the pollution. If we could buy each
equestrian a mountain bike to ride our parks would be much better off.


The problem with MV is that he hasn't studied any science because he
knows that the actual science totally contradicts his position. It's
called "argumentum ad ignorantiam" (argument from ignorance).


Every study shows that the impact of mountain bikers on erosion, plants,
and wildlife is less than or equal to the damage of hikers, and far less
than the damage of horses.


Mountain bikers move through an area quickly, minimizing the time that
they are disrupting wildlife, compared to hikers. Here's a similar
example: today we were kayaking in Elkhorn Slough near Monterey. One of
the volunteer docents that travels around by kayak asked us to move more
quickly through an area with sea otters (we were stopped watching them).
She said that to minimize the disruption to their activities it's better
to go through the area quickly. This is the same thing that mountain
bikers do.


If you knew ANYTHING about the research, you would know that NOT ONE
study addresses moving quickly. You are bluffing. The Wisdom et al
study proved that mountain bikers have more impact on elk than either
hikers or equestrians. Moving quickly didn't help them one bit. Like
ALL mountain bikers, you don't know what you are talking about, and
substitute LIES instead. No surprize there!


Crazy mother****er,

Have you not had your fill of the troubles your craziness causes you?
Why don't you leave this stuff to people who can think and act clearly
and responsibly? Go do the things that give you joy, and leave
quarreling about things to people who can be trusted to observe the
rules of social interaction.

Having a crackpot stalker in our group is no fun to us, but it's
surely even less fun to the crackpot. Win the game. Go commune with
nature, instead of hassling other more level-headed folks about it.
Find your favorite quiet spot and take some mindful deep breaths. Go
out and see if you can't feel the life force in a Genista and try to
make contact with it instead of trying to destroy it. Then try to see
that all things can find a rapport with the wilderness within their
own ability to grasp and appreciate it. Not your ability, but
theirs.

As long as their ways comply with common ethical and legal rules, you
are no more correct than they are in the ways you commune with
nature. Have your own way, and leave others to have theirs.

Chalo
  #38  
Old July 17th 11, 02:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
T°m [email protected]
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Posts: 813
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On 7/17/2011 3:09 AM, Çhâlõ Çólîñã wrote:
Mike Vandeman wrote:

SMS wrote:

Well in many states, including California, they definitely have problems
with horses. It's not just the enormous trail damage (it's estimated
that one horse does more damage than 50 mountain bikes or 50 hikers),
but the mess, the smell, and the pollution. If we could buy each
equestrian a mountain bike to ride our parks would be much better off.


Not to mention that the mountain bikers are getting to the trail heads
in vehicles that typically achieve 20 to 30+ mpg, while a truck or
oversize SUV with a gas motor hauling a horse trailer will usually be in
the 6 to 9 mpg range.

The problem with MV is that he hasn't studied any science because he
knows that the actual science totally contradicts his position. It's
called "argumentum ad ignorantiam" (argument from ignorance).


Scary that Vandeman makes Scharf look like a fountain of knowledge and
reason.

Every study shows that the impact of mountain bikers on erosion, plants,
and wildlife is less than or equal to the damage of hikers, and far less
than the damage of horses.


Mountain bikers move through an area quickly, minimizing the time that
they are disrupting wildlife, compared to hikers. Here's a similar
example: today we were kayaking in Elkhorn Slough near Monterey. One of
the volunteer docents that travels around by kayak asked us to move more
quickly through an area with sea otters (we were stopped watching them).
She said that to minimize the disruption to their activities it's better
to go through the area quickly. This is the same thing that mountain
bikers do.


If you knew ANYTHING about the research, you would know that NOT ONE
study addresses moving quickly. You are bluffing. The Wisdom et al
study proved that mountain bikers have more impact on elk than either
hikers or equestrians. Moving quickly didn't help them one bit. Like
ALL mountain bikers, you don't know what you are talking about, and
substitute LIES instead. No surprize there!


Yawn

Crazy mother****er,

Have you not had your fill of the troubles your craziness causes you?
Why don't you leave this stuff to people who can think and act clearly
and responsibly? Go do the things that give you joy, and leave
quarreling about things to people who can be trusted to observe the
rules of social interaction.

Maybe this *is* what gives Vandeman joy?

Having a crackpot stalker in our group is no fun to us, but it's
surely even less fun to the crackpot. Win the game. Go commune with
nature, instead of hassling other more level-headed folks about it.
Find your favorite quiet spot and take some mindful deep breaths. Go
out and see if you can't feel the life force in a Genista and try to
make contact with it instead of trying to destroy it. Then try to see
that all things can find a rapport with the wilderness within their
own ability to grasp and appreciate it. Not your ability, but
theirs.

As long as their ways comply with common ethical and legal rules, you
are no more correct than they are in the ways you commune with
nature. Have your own way, and leave others to have theirs.


I think Mikey V. cares more about spoiling mountain biking than
preserving nature.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #39  
Old July 17th 11, 03:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
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On 7/17/2011 1:09 AM, Chalo wrote:

snip

As long as their ways comply with common ethical and legal rules, you
are no more correct than they are in the ways you commune with
nature. Have your own way, and leave others to have theirs.


Well stated. If you believe the rules are wrong, or are not being
enforced, work for changes, don't take the law into your own hands and
physically attack anyone. I expect that jail was not a pleasant experience.

The rules about access are not always logical and sometimes should be
changed. I.e., both hikers and mountain bikers would like to see greatly
reduced access for equestrians, but the equestrians are generally
well-connected and wealthy, and get their way.

The big expansion of mountain biking should take place in national parks
outside the heavily used core area. Let's get kids out from in front of
the video games and out on mountain bikes. Not only will it get them
some exercise, it builds a future constituency for the national parks.

Since all the experts agree that mountain bicycling is no more damaging
to trails or wildlife than hiking, there is no reason to have such
limits on mountain biking in national parks.
  #40  
Old July 17th 11, 04:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Opus[_2_]
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On Jul 17, 9:53*am, SMS wrote:
snipity
Since all the experts agree that mountain bicycling is no more damaging
to trails or wildlife than hiking, there is no reason to have such
limits on mountain biking in national parks.


"Experts" other than Mikey, you mean?
 




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