300k+ a year

Op 01-01-10 20:20, Brad Anders wrote:
On Dec 31 2009, 6:01 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote:
On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:
That's pretty good money for women's bike racing.

That was mountain biking and she was a media star.

I do not have anything against women making a lot of money in cycling.
However, some of the numbers that you've posted in the past simply are
not close to reality.

I think this was cited previously:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/16/sp...16cycling.html

Quote from Bob Stapleton:

"He estimated that the salaries for members of the women’s team ranged
from “a jersey and a bike” to about $100,000 a year. Men’s salaries
are from $45,000 to more than $2.5 million."

Brooke Miller:

"She said the salary she draws from cycling was so low it was
basically, “You eat what you kill.”"

Interview with Pat McQuaid:

http://www.womenscycling.net/2006/In...PatMcQuaid.htm

"There are riders in professional teams who are not paid, they are
simply given kit and loaned a bike, in other teams, the situation is a
little better and in others, riders are paid a salary which they can
live on. None of the riders though, earn anything like the salaries
earned by those in a similar position in the men’s peleton."

"The best we can strive and hope for in both the men’s and the women’s
sport, is that there is, at least a small salary or at minimum, good
contracts and conditions of employment."

There are many more references out there. As you say, Giove's salary
was so high because of her wide range of sponsorships, the popularity
of her event, and her personality and performances. For your typical
working rider on a small women's pro team, the situation is radically
different. Even among decent riders pay levels are typically quite low
and vary widely across teams.

One of the biggest stars in women's cycling, Emma Johansson:

"I’m not earning money as a cyclist. It’s nothing I can put in a bank
account and live off for the rest of my life! The day I stop cycling,
I’m going to have to go to work."

Source: http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=7770

On Jan 1, 5:29*pm, "A. Dumas" wrote:
Op 01-01-10 20:20, Brad Anders wrote:



On Dec 31 2009, 6:01 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote:
On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:
That's pretty good money for women's bike racing.

That was mountain biking and she was a media star.

I do not have anything against women making a lot of money in cycling.
However, some of the numbers that you've posted in the past simply are
not close to reality.

I think this was cited previously:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/16/sp...16cycling.html

Quote from Bob Stapleton:

"He estimated that the salaries for members of the women’s team ranged
from “a jersey and a bike” to about $100,000 a year. Men’s salaries
are from $45,000 to more than $2.5 million."

Brooke Miller:

"She said the salary she draws from cycling was so low it was
basically, “You eat what you kill.”"

Interview with Pat McQuaid:

http://www.womenscycling.net/2006/In...PatMcQuaid.htm

"There are riders in professional teams who are not paid, they are
simply given kit and loaned a bike, in other teams, the situation is a
little better and in others, riders are paid a salary which they can
live on. None of the riders though, earn anything like the salaries
earned by those in a similar position in the men’s peleton."

"The best we can strive and hope for in both the men’s and the women’s
sport, is that there is, at least a small salary or at minimum, good
contracts and conditions of employment."

There are many more references out there. As you say, Giove's salary
was so high because of her wide range of sponsorships, the popularity
of her event, and her personality and performances. For your typical
working rider on a small women's pro team, the situation is radically
different. Even among decent riders pay levels are typically quite low
and vary widely across teams.

One of the biggest stars in women's cycling, Emma Johansson:

"I’m not earning money as a cyclist. It’s nothing I can put in a bank
account and live off for the rest of my life! The day I stop cycling,
I’m going to have to go to work."

Source:http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=7770

And she's hot, which is bankable. You can bet the less-hot chicks are
making even less.

-rj

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
In article
,
ronaldo_jeremiah wrote:

On Dec 31 2009, 10:56 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
wrote:
On Dec 31, 6:57 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:



"Tom Kunich" wrote in message
m...
"GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote in message
news "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote in
message
...
On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:
Bull****, you don't know what the **** you are talking about.
That's sort of like saying - "Sheets are white".
He's not current on what women make today, and I don't post salaries and
the
names of people earning those salaries, never have unless it was already
public information. I stated general numbers across the board from over
the
years, which are based on factual information from reliable sources.
Whatever he knew then is old news, and I doubt he has any contacts in
Europe
for what the UCI women are actually making there either. However, upwards
of
300k a year is probably the most any women has made in cycling here.
snip

Dumbass -

There might be a vew women that can make good money. Those are the
ones that get a lot of publicity.

The rest of them barely scrape by.

I wish I was wrong about this.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Dumbass -

Add to this the claim that MG 'allegedly' made that for a year, and in
a sport that few of us would actually consider to be bike racing.

I'd bet that there isn't a single female cyclist in the world who made
six figures US in 2009. Like you said, I'd like to be wrong, but I
doubt I am.

Hard to say for sure, but Missy Giove was not only active in women's DH
during the only year or two when the sport mattered (the peak of MTB
racing popularity), she was also the best in the world, working with
top-tier non-cycling sponsors (Reebok), and she had a highly marketable
image.

Let's put it this way: the three active-in-the-90s pro women I've heard
of are Giove, Alison Dunlap, and Alison Sydor. And I've met Sydor. Sort
of: she fondled my shark hat while passing me in a cyclocross race. Or
was that Wendy Simms? Whatever.

Here's a 1996 article that has probably already been posted into this
thread:

http://www.seattlepi.com/getaways/09...ike26_top.html

It suggests "high six figures" for Giove's peak year of earnings.


Are we discussing what pro teams pay woman cyclists or is this about how
much a top notch female cyclist could conceivably make in a year? They
aren't the same thing.

Missy Giove might well have earned in the high six figures the same year
her team paid her $75K. There's no contradiction.

In article ,
"GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:

"Ryan Cousineau" wrote in message
]...

[Missy Giove]

Here's a 1996 article that has probably already been posted into this
thread:

http://www.seattlepi.com/getaways/09...ike26_top.html

It suggests "high six figures" for Giove's peak year of earnings.

--
Ryan Cousineau

So where did all that cash go?

The mechanisms for blowing an early (and not that substantial) windfall
of earnings are pretty well known. Basically, you get used to living on
300k a year, and then after 3-6 years the money goes away.

Even a prudent planner might want to live on, oh, 50k/year, which is
hardly immodest, and if you assume a 200k house, well, that's maybe the
house plus two years of income from one good year, and another six-odd
years from every subsequent 300k year.

And here we are, about a decade from her career peak, eh?

The other part of the equation is similarly well-known: athlete spends
the post-secondary years riding a bike instead of learning a trade.
Stops riding bike? Nothing they can do.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

"marco" wrote in message
...
GoneBeforeMyTime wrote:
Add to that, many come from families who have money, like Marin, Palo
Alto, and even Santa Barbara....
^^^^^^^^^^^^

Perhaps I'm blanking on this, but I can't recall a single top-level woman
racer having come from Santa Barbara in the last 20+ years. And don't say
Lynn Brontzman/Gaggioli because she wasn't really from here. Several
really good women riders have made SB their temporary or permanent home,
including Kim Anderson right now, but they all came from some place else.
Is there somebody specifically you're thinking of actually _from_ Santa
Barbara?

Sure, plenty.

UCSB is actually in Goleta, and I am sure a few cat 1-2 women cyclists have
come out of there over the years, although I can't name any at the moment
from UCSB. I have a friend who lives in Goleta and I can ask him, he would
know cause he always working out over there, and seen a lot of riders all
over the place for the last 30 years. He does both MB and road racing, plus
single and double centuries.

Riders from Santa Barbara...
Meredith Mills and Jennifer Gabet are both Cat 1-2, from Santa Barbara,
Gabet is from Goleta. Angela Rebol is from Santa Barbara, how about Michelle
La Pierre or Amanda McCoy, all from Santa Barbara. Amy Nett, Lila Ferguson
and Angela Bell are all pro cyclists from Santa Barbara.

On Jan 1, 11:22*am, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:
"WTF" wrote in message

...





On 12/31/09 6:26 PM, in article
,
"Kurgan.
presented by Gringioni." wrote:

On Dec 31, 6:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:
"Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote in
.
..
On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:

Bull****, you don't know what the **** you are talking about.

Dumbass -

Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those
women's teams for a few years?

I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

Dumbass-

You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens
team.....

So he wasn't a manager?


Dumbass -

Road manager. I was never in charge of a team. Wouldn't want to be.
Paperwork, budget, sponsors, all that busywork. I handled the
logicistal racing end of stuff here in the Western US and did some
stuff back east too, Tour of Toona and Tour of Ohio and the like.

The best result the team ever got was with Talgo when Sue Palmer-
Kolmar won the women's RR at Sea Otter, so it wasn't exactly Cat 4
stuff like Fat Steve claims. Usually we'd have someone in the top 10
of the harder stage races - half the women were good climbers.

BTW, if the women are making so much money now, like you claim, then
why is it that races like 'Toona, Tour of Idaho (Ore Ida), Le Grande
Boucle Feminin existed then, but no longer exist today? Is it because
there's tons more money in the sport today? That's why they went away?

Ya, right.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

On Jan 1, 12:52*pm, WTF wrote:
On 1/1/10 11:22 AM, in article ,





"GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:

"WTF" wrote in message
...
On 12/31/09 6:26 PM, in article
,
"Kurgan.
presented by Gringioni." wrote:

On Dec 31, 6:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:
"Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote in

m.
..
On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:

Bull****, you don't know what the **** you are talking about.

Dumbass -

Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those
women's teams for a few years?

I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

Dumbass-

You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens
team.....

So he wasn't a manager?

" Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those
women's teams for a few years?"

As I wrote above.......
What is you definition of a "part time road manager"?



Dear Fat Steve -

Why do you always pretend to have knowledge about situations in which
you have no firsthand information?

Karen Menge ran the Jane's team, but she didn't go out to the races
unless they were local. On the spring part of the season I'd handle
the stuff out on the road. It was usually me and two other people who
would double as soigneur/mechanic. In the late summers, I'd go back
east and handle some of the races there too. For Talgo, I just did
West Coast.

The riders need support in those stage races. For the crit part of the
season they can take care of themselves.

I'm quite positive that none of the women in North America were making
$300k at that time, not even Genvieve Jeanson who had an entire team
built around her. Very few of the teams even had yearly budgets for
the entire team that would reach that level. Probably only three that
I can think of.

Those are just generalities. It's not like I saw the contracts or
anything, but there was plenty of time to shoot the **** in the feed
zones and hear what was going on.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

GoneBeforeMyTime wrote:
Add to that, many come from families who have money, like Marin, Palo
Alto, and even Santa Barbara....

marco wrote:
Perhaps I'm blanking on this, but I can't recall a single top-level woman
racer having come from Santa Barbara in the last 20+ years. And don't say
Lynn Brontzman/Gaggioli because she wasn't really from here. Several
really good women riders have made SB their temporary or permanent home,
including Kim Anderson right now, but they all came from some place else.
Is there somebody specifically you're thinking of actually _from_ Santa
Barbara?

GoneBeforeMyTime wrote:
Sure, plenty.

UCSB is actually in Goleta, and I am sure a few cat 1-2 women cyclists
have come out of there over the years, although I can't name any at the
moment from UCSB. I have a friend who lives in Goleta and I can ask him,
he would know cause he always working out over there, and seen a lot of
riders all over the place for the last 30 years. He does both MB and road
racing, plus single and double centuries.

Riders from Santa Barbara...
Meredith Mills and Jennifer Gabet are both Cat 1-2, from Santa Barbara,
Gabet is from Goleta. Angela Rebol is from Santa Barbara, how about
Michelle La Pierre or Amanda McCoy, all from Santa Barbara. Amy Nett, Lila
Ferguson and Angela Bell are all pro cyclists from Santa Barbara.

Bruce,
I know or knew most of the women you mentioned above. They would be the
first to tell you they are neither pro nor competitive at a national level.
To be sure, they are all good people, very nice ladies, and are/were decent
local racers, but none of them ever aspired to be more than recreational
bike racers. Anyway, I'm curious how you came up with those names. Do you
know any of them? I'm not being antagonistic, just curious to know the
places that rbr and my real world cross paths. Who is your friend who lives
in Goleta?
Mark

"Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote in message
...
On Jan 1, 11:22 am, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:
"WTF" wrote in message

...





On 12/31/09 6:26 PM, in article
,
"Kurgan.
presented by Gringioni." wrote:

On Dec 31, 6:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:
"Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote in
.
..
On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:

Bull****, you don't know what the **** you are talking about.

Dumbass -

Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those
women's teams for a few years?

I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

Dumbass-

You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens
team.....

So he wasn't a manager?


BTW, if the women are making so much money now, like you claim, then
why is it that races like 'Toona, Tour of Idaho (Ore Ida), Le Grande
Boucle Feminin existed then, but no longer exist today? Is it because
there's tons more money in the sport today? That's why they went away?


I don't claim that only women at the top make good money, and the rest make
nothing. Even a number of riders in the middle made good money at times,
more then you think. Grande Boucle was the victim by proxy of feuds between
the UCI and the Tour. The Grande Boucle, in fact both French women riders
and teams have really suffered in France and Pierre Boue pulled the plug,
especially since the top two press photographers skipped it in favor of
races in Italy like Giro De Feminin and Toscana. It was getting no press,
and shrunk to only 3 stages, previously 17 stages in 2003. Also UCI wouldn't
endorse it, probably fallout from the Tour problems according to Boue, all
French related. In fact, Boue is so angry over the UCI and all the problems
over the years that he is going to obtain a lawyer just to write a tell all
book.



Women's Challenge suffered from poor TV coverage, a problem that still
exists today. Prize money was certainly awesome in some years, more then any
race on record for women. Problem was also that race had courses in the
remote areas away from big cities where fans are. Many cities are always
part of TOC courses, probably a fatal mistake for Idaho race. Who's going to
travel way out there to see the race? Foothills race is also way out there
in the foothills and it gets zero fans, but its counterpart does very well
in the city crit. Without stellar TV coverage, Women's Challenge wasn't seem
by many. I think there was like 50 minutes total of TV for all the stages.



Toona should be back to 7 stages, and prize money is said to be about 40k
for the women, but this is tentative as of yet, not final yet that I know
of. This could change. Its been moved to August as well, as it has a bad
time slot in July. However, if you are asking if there are a shortage of
races worldwide, not really. There is still a ton of UCI women's races on
the calendar, and the World Cup is as strong as ever, same. The NRC calendar
has shrunk some, but California has added more races, Redlands is still a
strong draw. Prize money in US is better then Europe generally, but their
UCI top women make more then domestic women. This year, I know of several
very reasonable offers to domestic women to sign contracts on various teams.
Obviously the economy has hurt cycling sponsors getting onboard, but new
ones will come, always do.

On Jan 1, 8:32*pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:
"Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote in ...
On Jan 1, 11:22 am, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:





"WTF" wrote in message

...

On 12/31/09 6:26 PM, in article
,
"Kurgan.
presented by Gringioni." wrote:

On Dec 31, 6:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:
"Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote in
.
..
On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:

Bull****, you don't know what the **** you are talking about.

Dumbass -

Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those
women's teams for a few years?

I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

Dumbass-

You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens
team.....

So he wasn't a manager?
BTW, if the women are making so much money now, like you claim, then
why is it that races like 'Toona, Tour of Idaho (Ore Ida), Le Grande
Boucle Feminin existed then, but no longer exist today? Is it because
there's tons more money in the sport today? That's why they went away?

I don't claim that only women at the top make good money, and the rest make
nothing. Even a number of riders in the middle made good money at times,
more then you think. Grande Boucle was the victim by proxy of feuds between
the UCI and the Tour. The Grande Boucle, in fact both French women riders
and teams have really suffered in France and Pierre Boue pulled the plug,
especially since the top two press photographers skipped it in favor of
races in Italy like Giro De Feminin and Toscana. It was getting no press,
and shrunk to only 3 stages, previously 17 stages in 2003. Also UCI wouldn't
endorse it, probably fallout from the Tour problems according to Boue, all
French related. In fact, Boue is so angry over the UCI and all the problems
over the years that he is going to obtain a lawyer just to write a tell all
book.

Women's Challenge suffered from poor TV coverage, a problem that still
exists today. Prize money was certainly awesome in some years, more then any
race on record for women. Problem was also that race had courses in the
remote areas away from big cities where fans are. Many cities are always
part of TOC courses, probably a fatal mistake for Idaho race. Who's going to
travel way out there to see the race? Foothills race is also way out there
in the foothills and it gets zero fans, but its counterpart does very well
in the city crit. Without stellar TV coverage, Women's Challenge wasn't seem
by many. I think there was like 50 minutes total of TV for all the stages..

snip



Dumbass -

OK, you mention poor TV coverage and lack of publicity.

If the TV coverage and publicity isn't there, how is it that there's
tons more money in the sport than there was 8 years ago?

The answer is: there isn't.

Sponsors put the $$$ out there based upon the amount of publicity
value in return. If the media coverage isn't there, the teams aren't
going to be able to negotiate more money.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.