Landis picks Lemond's Lawyer

Brad Anders wrote:
How do you know for certain (dope tests don't count - we know they can
be beaten) that Jeanson's competitors weren't using EPO or some other
form of doping? Because Jeanson was on EPO and she was beating them?


GoneBeforeMyTime wrote:
Are you speculating that Bessette might of used EPO? I don't believe it.
She would be about the last person that would remind me of a cheater.


Gonna have to agree with Brucie on this one. But if he doesn't stop writing
"...might of..." instead of "...might have...", I think I'm going to punch
him.

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

Who is making claims that EPO
extends careers?
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

I said perhaps it could extend their tour records, but even a career is
relatively short in cycling compared to a typical 25 year career job, except
Longo. If a rider has a five or ten year career, he would benefit from EPO
during that period obviously. True, he might blow out his cylinders over
time, but he wants the check and to build a nest egg for his family. With a
job that hard, and a career that short, you better make your money during
that period, otherwise you Dad's advise was correct. Don't go into cycling!

In article ,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:

"GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote in message
...
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

If we accept the idea that EPO is/was incredibly widespread, how do
we
also accept the idea that its use produces a "Huge peformance
difference, whic can extand a tour winning streak?" We've pretty much
indicted the podium of every Grand Tour of the past decade at this
point. Perhaps if we accept that Greg LeMond was the only clean
cyclist in history, he might still be out there, winning Grand Tours,
if doping was gone?

In both examples I citied, EPO use didn't exist when the other five
time tour winners won. For them, EPO marks a big improvement today
over what those guys were using way back then. If those guys had
access to EPO, it's possible they too could of won perhaps more tours.
Just saying. The other example I citied still applies today to the
women, but not the men. Very few if any were using EPO when Jeanson
won during that period. In fact, I would have to look at the doping
list, cause I can't recall offhand another pro women who used EPO
during Jeansons time that got caught. After yes like Bouba and Moreno,
but not before. Zina used steroids, not EPO. I recall also the
Columbian rider. I think it's generally accepted knowledge, and if you
talk to the pro women they won't be able to report that much of that
was going on. With Jeanson, they would tell you they knew or highly
suspected she was juicing. The women just don't have much incentive to
do that. For them racing is more a social scene.

EPO isn't a fountain of youth. It's more like high-octane gas that revs
up the engine (and like any drug that revs up the engine, it carries
dangers of destroying that same engine by running it too hard... as do
many forms of doping... the old light that burns twice as bright lasts
half as long thing). Who is making claims that EPO extends careers? In
an environment where use is widespread, I don't see it.

I do not see EPO this way, and this is the first time I
heard this view of EPO. Can you cite any research on it?

--
Michael Press

"Michael Press" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:

"GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote in message
...
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

If we accept the idea that EPO is/was incredibly widespread, how do
we
also accept the idea that its use produces a "Huge peformance
difference, whic can extand a tour winning streak?" We've pretty much
indicted the podium of every Grand Tour of the past decade at this
point. Perhaps if we accept that Greg LeMond was the only clean
cyclist in history, he might still be out there, winning Grand Tours,
if doping was gone?

In both examples I citied, EPO use didn't exist when the other five
time tour winners won. For them, EPO marks a big improvement today
over what those guys were using way back then. If those guys had
access to EPO, it's possible they too could of won perhaps more tours.
Just saying. The other example I citied still applies today to the
women, but not the men. Very few if any were using EPO when Jeanson
won during that period. In fact, I would have to look at the doping
list, cause I can't recall offhand another pro women who used EPO
during Jeansons time that got caught. After yes like Bouba and Moreno,
but not before. Zina used steroids, not EPO. I recall also the
Columbian rider. I think it's generally accepted knowledge, and if you
talk to the pro women they won't be able to report that much of that
was going on. With Jeanson, they would tell you they knew or highly
suspected she was juicing. The women just don't have much incentive to
do that. For them racing is more a social scene.

EPO isn't a fountain of youth. It's more like high-octane gas that revs
up the engine (and like any drug that revs up the engine, it carries
dangers of destroying that same engine by running it too hard... as do
many forms of doping... the old light that burns twice as bright lasts
half as long thing). Who is making claims that EPO extends careers? In
an environment where use is widespread, I don't see it.

I do not see EPO this way, and this is the first time I
heard this view of EPO. Can you cite any research on it?

--
Michael Press

My view or Keith's? What claims has anyone made about EPO beyond enhancing
the blood's ability to carry oxygen? There's nothing I've heard regarding
EPO's ability to "protect" any part of the body from damage due to
over-exertion; it doesn't increase muscle bulk, it doesn't metabolize fat
better, it just does one thing (and does it very well).

Through careful training and recovery techniques you can extend the body's
ability to deal with muscle, tendon & ligament damage, but ultimately many
(perhaps most?) athletes are limited as they age by their ability to deal
with those issues. Toss in EPO, which is going to increase those stresses,
with no mechanism to mitigate the damage, and I don't see how a case can be
made for it extending an athlete's useful time in the saddle.

Having said all that, the flaw in my argument would be if it is the case
that an athlete is in greater need of EPO as they age due to significant
naturally-occuring decreases in oxygen-carrying capability.

There are people with significant medical backgrounds here. Hopefully
someone will chim in.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

On Jun 9, 10:54*am, "B. Lafferty" wrote:

hgh is the closest we have to a fountain of youth.

Not even close:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/reprint/270/14/1694

Andy Coggan

On Jun 8, 9:24*pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:
Brad Anders wrote:
On Jun 8, 12:49 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:

EPO use is key, critical in how it changed the
record books. Look at Jeanson for a clue, stripping 50 wins out of
Bessette's grasp, and a huge amount of prize money as well

How do you know for certain (dope tests don't count - we know they can
be beaten) that Jeanson's competitors weren't using EPO or some other
form of doping? Because Jeanson was on EPO and she was beating them?

Brad Anders

Are you speculating that Bessette might of used EPO? I don't believe it. She
would be about the last person that would remind me of a cheater.

No, I"m pointing out to you that relying on your personal views of a
person's character as to whether or not they're a likely doper has
been proven over and over and over to be wrong. I have no idea of if
Bessette is a doper - neither do you, regardless of your beliefs about
her character. How do you know that she wasn't ever given an injection
or medicine by a team doctor that was illegal without her knowledge?
How do you know she never inadvertantly took a supplement with a
banned substance? How do you know she wasn't pulling the wool over
eyes and intentionally doping? All of those scenarios could lead to a
positive test, The fact is you have no idea. Your conjectures about
Jeanson's robbing anyone of victories is based on a false belief that
you somehow know her competition wasn't doping. You don't.

The only thing we can go by today is that when someone tests positive,
there's a significant probability that they're a doper. Other than
that, we know nothing as to who is doping and who isn't, intentionally
or otherwise.

Brad Anders

Andy Coggan wrote:
On Jun 9, 10:54 am, "B. Lafferty" wrote:
hgh is the closest we have to a fountain of youth.

Not even close:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/reprint/270/14/1694

Unavailable but I guess the title summarises:

Growth Hormone Therapy for the Elderly: The Fountain of Youth Proves
Toxic - Yarasheski and Zachwieja - JAMA 1993

GoneBeforeMyTime wrote:
Fred Flintstein wrote:
On 6/8/2010 2:49 PM, GoneBeforeMyTime wrote:
Anton Berlin wrote:
On Jun 8, 2:05 pm, Fred
wrote:
On 6/8/2010 1:52 PM, GoneBeforeMyTime wrote:

GoneBeforeMyTime wrote:
This is grevious I am sure to Merckx.
Fockstick,

No, I am certain it is not. Merckx was busted three times
for dope.

Anquetil, may he rest in peace, would also be totally OK
with it. He was quite outspoken about the need to be
properly prepared.

We don't have to speculate about Hinault. He's spent too
much time on the Tour podium congratulating LANCE.

Fred Flintstein
I haven't soent too much time but you're right about those three and
almost any rider that has a name on the international scale is more
than likely doped in one form or another. Anytime I go to look,
there's dope, dope connections or dope attempts (same as doped) -
just got caught making the buy.
My point is that Merckx had a hard time swallowing Lance winning
five tours, then six and seven breaking his record he held with the
others. I followed Merckx comments during those years. I read a lot
of that stuff he said. It's a fact. I would bet all five would take
issue over EPO compared to what those guys were using back then.
Huge performance difference, which can extend a tour winning streak.
EPO use is key, critical in how it changed the record books. Look at
Jeanson for a clue, stripping 50 wins out of Bessette's grasp, and a
huge amount of prize money as well.
Fockstick,

Bet you Indurain wouldn't have an issue with EPO. You're so
far off base you've lost your understanding of what a base
looks like or represents.

Fred Flintstein

You really are a bitter old ****.

Close. He's actually a completely correct bitter old ****.

GoneBeforeMyTime wrote:
Brad Anders wrote:
On Jun 8, 12:49 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:

EPO use is key, critical in how it changed the
record books. Look at Jeanson for a clue, stripping 50 wins out of
Bessette's grasp, and a huge amount of prize money as well
How do you know for certain (dope tests don't count - we know they can
be beaten) that Jeanson's competitors weren't using EPO or some other
form of doping? Because Jeanson was on EPO and she was beating them?

Brad Anders

Are you speculating that Bessette might of used EPO? I don't believe it. She
would be about the last person that would remind me of a cheater.



Yeah. Tyler was clean, too. He was clean cut, and had a dog, and everything.

Honestly, you have no way of knowing. Could be the grumpy people you
don't like are clean; and the smiling, happy sociopaths you love are
dirty as hell.

wrote in
:

Ain't arguing that point at all. Something about someone that can make
the other riders die on a climb, including Van Impe, and a few months
later duke it out successfully on really nasty track races, among the
holes and the splinters and the beer drinkers on the second level
sloshing beer...

Of course, if a rider did that nowadays, half of us would be convinced he
had some great new undetectable doping protocol going, one quarter would
believe he didn't, and it was all desire or training, and the final
quarter would have fun baiting the other 3/4's on usenet.

Thank god things aren't like that though, and we can just enjoy watching
whoever is riding well or really talented dominate the field.

--
Bill Fred