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Frank Olson & Peter Clinch & the Muslims
There has been quite a storm on this newsgroup recently with respect to
Frank Olson of Canada and Peter Clinch of Scotland and what to make of the Muslims with respect to the War on Terrorism. Ogg and I have tried to point out that the Muslims are by no means peace loving and in fact are part of the problem throughout the world. Here is an article which I am posting in full so that all the dunderheads can get a clue about what is happening in the world. Even the Dutch, the most tolerant and liberal people in the world, are starting to have second thoughts about them. Read the article and weep - for the West and for civilization. For Dutch, anger battles with tolerance By Craig S. Smith The New York Times Thursday, November 11, 2004 AMSTERDAM Anger toward the Netherlands' Muslim community percolated among the crowd that gathered outside the funeral for the Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, who was killed by an Islamic extremist a week ago. The public debate over how conservative Islam fits into Europe's most tolerant, liberal society had already become a no-holds-barred affair before the killing of van Gogh, who had publicly and repeatedly used epithets against Muslims. But his killing has now polarized the country, giving the rest of Europe a disturbing glimpse of what may be in store if relations with the continent's growing immigrant communities are not managed more adeptly. The anger is such that for the second time in two days an Islamic elementary school was attacked Tuesday, this time in Uden, part of what Dutch authorities fear are reprisals after van Gogh's killing. The authorities said that Muslim sites had been the targets of a half-dozen attacks in the past week. In apparent retaliation, arsonists attempted to burn down Protestant churches in Rotterdam, Utrecht and Amersfoort, the police said. The attacks have scratched the patina of tolerance on which the Dutch have long prided themselves, particularly here in their principal city, where the scent of hashish trails in the air, prostitutes beckon from storefront brothels and Hell's Angels live side by side with Hare Krishnas. But many Dutch now say that for years that tradition of tolerance suppressed an open debate about the challenges of integrating conservative Muslims. Jan Colijn, 46, a bookkeeper from the central Dutch town of Gorinchem who was at the funeral Tuesday night, complained that the Netherlands' generous social welfare system had allowed Muslim immigrants to isolate themselves. Because of that, "there is a kind of Muslim fascism emerging here," he said. "The government must find a way to break these communities open." Another man, who declined to give his name, was more succinct: "Now, it's war." For many years, such criticism of Islam and Islamic customs, even among Dutch extremists, was considered taboo, despite deep frustrations that had built up against conservative Islam in the country. Many here say that began to change after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the United States, when the Netherlands, like many other countries, began to consider the dangers of political Islam seriously. The debate fueled an anti-immigration movement and helped propel the career of the populist politician Pim Fortuyn, who was murdered by an environmental activist shortly before national elections in 2002. By all accounts in the Netherlands, Fortuyn's murder removed any remaining brakes on the debate surrounding immigrants. "After Pim Fortuyn's murder, there were no limitations on what you could say," said Edwin Bakker, a terrorism expert at the Netherlands Institute of International Relations. "It has become a climate in which insulting people is the norm." He and others said the public discourse, even among members of government, reached an unprecedented pitch and included language that went far beyond the limits set for public forums in the United States. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a member of Parliament and one of a handful of politicians threatened with death by Islamic extremists, publicly called the prophet Muhammad a "pervert" and a "tyrant." She made a film with van Gogh condemning sexual abuse among Muslim women, who were portrayed with Koranic verses written on their bare skin. Van Gogh himself was one of the most outspoken critics of fundamentalist Muslims and favored an epithet for conservative Muslims that referred to bestiality with a goat. He used the term often in his public statements, including a column he wrote for a widely read free newspaper and during radio broadcasts and television appearances. The cumulative effect made van Gogh, a distant relation of the painter Vincent van Gogh, a kind of cult clown on one side of the debate, and a reviled hatemonger on the other. The debate became so caustic that the Dutch intelligence service, AIVD, issued a report in March warning that the unrestrained language could encourage radicalization of the country's Muslim youth and drive individuals into the arms of terrorist recruiters. The agency has warned repeatedly in recent years that such recruiters are active in the Netherlands and elsewhere in Europe. While only about 20 percent of the Netherlands' estimated 900,000 Muslims practice their religion, according to one government study, officials say as many as 5 percent of Muslims in the country follow a conservative form of Islam. Most are from the Netherlands' Moroccan community, which has its roots in the Rif, an impoverished, mountainous Berber region in the north. There are about 300,000 people of Moroccan descent in the Netherlands today, and the intensified anti-immigration debate has alienated many of them from Dutch society and, many people argue, has also helped fragment the Muslim community. Jean Tillie, a professor of political science at the University of Amsterdam, says that the debate has broken down a network that connected even the most extremist Muslim groups to the more moderate voices within the Muslim community. He cited an Amsterdam government advisory board that brought together all kinds of Moroccans and fostered communication and cohesion within the Muslim community. "Those groups participating didn't agree with each other, but they met together with the collective mission of advising the city government," he said. The board was abolished a year ago, he says. He claims that funds for other ethnic organizations have shrunk and outreach policies have also been abandoned. At El Tawheed mosque, considered by many people to be the epicenter of extremism in Amsterdam, Farid Zaari, the mosque's spokesman, argues that pressure from the debate has hindered the Muslim community's ability to control its radical youth. "If we bring these people into the mosque, it is possible to change their thoughts, but few mosques dare to because if you do, you're branded," he said. Dutch media reports insist that van Gogh's killer attended the mosque, and though Zaari says the mosque has no record of his ever being there, he said that political leaders and the media should encourage the mosque to reach out to the community's radical youth, rather than stigmatizing it for doing so. The mosque was previously associated with a Saudi-based charity, Al Haramain, which American and Saudi Arabian officials accused earlier this year of aiding Islamic terrorists. The mosque has since severed its ties with the charity, but more recently it has been criticized for selling books espousing extremist views, including female circumcision and the punishment of homosexuals by throwing them off tall buildings. Several legislators have called for the mosque to be shut down, but under the Dutch constitution it is difficult to do. Zaari admits that the Muslim community was slow to respond to the fears within Dutch society. "We didn't feel it was our responsibility to bridge the gap, but now, with the murder, the gap has gotten wider," he said. "All of us want to begin a dialogue now, but the language of the political right is too extreme, and that's preventing discussion," he said. "We all have to cool down and be careful what we say." The problem is how to bridge a gap that has yawned dangerously since van Gogh's murder. The Amsterdam Council of Churches published paid notices in some Dutch newspapers pledging solidarity with the Muslim community. But the government's response has been to promise more money for fighting terrorism and stronger immigration laws. "Islam is the most hated word in the country at this point," said Bakker, the terrorism expert. Copyright © 2004 The International Herald Tribune | www.iht.com -- Regards, Ed Dolan - Minnesota |
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"Edward Dolan" wrote in message ... There has been quite a storm on this newsgroup recently with respect to Frank Olson of Canada and Peter Clinch of Scotland and what to make of the Muslims with respect to the War on Terrorism. Ogg and I have tried to point out that the Muslims are by no means peace loving and in fact are part of the problem throughout the world. Here is an article which I am posting in full so that all the dunderheads can get a clue about what is happening in the world. Even the Dutch, the most tolerant and liberal people in the world, are starting to have second thoughts about them. Read the article and weep - for the West and for civilization. You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over the place for the next few days. http://www.nysun.com/article/4623 |
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On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:38:48 -0600, "Ogg Oggibly"
wrote in message : You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over the place for the next few days. I hope that when you die nobody dances on your grave in that way. I suspect that you are too insignificant for it to be a realistic prospect. Guy -- May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk 88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University |
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On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:38:48 -0600
"Ogg Oggibly" wrote: "Edward Dolan" wrote in message ... There has been quite a storm on this newsgroup recently with respect to Frank Olson of Canada and Peter Clinch of Scotland and what to make of the Muslims with respect to the War on Terrorism. Ogg and I have tried to point out that the Muslims are by no means peace loving and in fact are part of the problem throughout the world. Here is an article which I am posting in full so that all the dunderheads can get a clue about what is happening in the world. Even the Dutch, the most tolerant and liberal people in the world, are starting to have second thoughts about them. Read the article and weep - for the West and for civilization. You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over the place for the next few days. I don't think either side of that conflict can claim clean hands and clear conscience. Or even admirable intentions. Just what you get when Yahweh tells two groups of people that the same chunk of land is both holy and theirs alone. Interesting factoid - under the ottoman empire, jews had preferential status, of a sort. Imported goods were taxed at three different rates - the most preferential rate for islamic importers, the least preferential rate for christians and other infidels, and a middle rate for jews. Additionally, while christians and other infidels were not allowed to enter the empire, jews could come and go as they pleased and were often employed as emissaries and business managers, as the citizens of the ottoman empire considered the outside world unclean and preferred that if someone had to travel, someone else should do it. When the nazis entered the middle east, they spread a great deal of anti-semetic propaganda in the local languages. Some historians point to this as the initial breakdown in relations. Palestinian jews who were living on the land that is now Israel do not enjoy the same social status as western european jews now living there. How did that happen? Could it be because they have darker skin? Brazilian jews descended from native brazilians who were converted to judaism hundreds of years ago are routinely denied citizenship. Also mexican jews descended from spanish jews that fled persecution in spain hundreds of years ago by emigrating to mexico are denied citizenship. (incidentally, it didn't help - the spanish government sent ships to mexico to persecute and kill them there, too.) A few years ago there was a court ruling in israel denying citizenship to members of an african tribe who practice an aincent form of judaism. How can all this be? I thought it was about religion. My neighbor is the son of slavic jews that emigrated to israel and prefers living in religiously repressed Utah to living in religiously repressed Israel. How can that be? Is it wrong for me to believe that the color of your skin, the language you speak, your parents country of origin, none of these things should have any bearing on your status in a modern society? If this is how they treat people of their own religion, boy, imagine if you're the wrong religion. Apparently you're not even usually allowed to own your house or get a job. I can't condone anything the PLO has ever done. But i understand why they're so ****ed off. |
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Ogg Oggibly wrote:
You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over the place for the next few days. http://www.nysun.com/article/4623 While one cannot admire how the Palestinian leadership has handled things, one also cannot admire the Israeli leadership. But there may be hope down. One of my brothers has been working and living in Isarael for the past four years, and told me an interesting thing recently: the wise Isaelies are learning to to get along with the Palestinians that live inside their borders. And the reason? The Palestinian birthrate is four times that of the Israelis, and unless there's a change they will be a minority in their own country within fifty years. So, the young Jews are realizing that ****ing off the Arabs is going to be to their own long-term detriment, unless of course they try to keep comtrol by creating some kind of apartheid state. Mark |
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"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message ... On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:38:48 -0600, "Ogg Oggibly" wrote in message : You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over the place for the next few days. I hope that when you die nobody dances on your grave in that way. Guy. You are having those mood swings again. Day before yesterday you said something to the effect of you didn't give a **** about Arafat, the unaccounted for 3 billion dollars, his wife Sue, excuse me make that Suha, or his wannabee suscessors. Today your pannies are all in a wad because of an obit in a New York newspaper. I didn't write it for Allah's sake. I suspect that you are too insignificant for it to be a realistic prospect. No argument there. I am totally insignificant. I've never massacred an Israeli Olympic team or recruited mentally retarded 16 year olds promising them paradise and 72 virgins if they would strap a bomb to their waist and detonate it on a bus full Israeli school children, etc., etc. So no - no one will be dancing on my grave in that way. Ogg O |
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Mr. Ed Dolan wrote:
There has been quite a storm on this newsgroup recently with respect to Frank Olson of Canada and Peter Clinch of Scotland and what to make of the Muslims with respect to the War on Terrorism.... Let it be noted that Mr. Ed Dolan is starting an off-topic political thread, thereby voiding his former statement that he only goes off-topic to respond to "liberal" statements. -- Tom Sherman "Use your head, Mr. Ed" – Slugger |
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"Mark Rehder" wrote in message ... Ogg Oggibly wrote: You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over the place for the next few days. http://www.nysun.com/article/4623 While one cannot admire how the Palestinian leadership has handled things, one also cannot admire the Israeli leadership. But there may be hope down. One of my brothers has been working and living in Isarael for the past four years, and told me an interesting thing recently: the wise Isaelies are learning to to get along with the Palestinians that live inside their borders. And the reason? The Palestinian birthrate is four times that of the Israelis, and unless there's a change they will be a minority in their own country within fifty years. So, the young Jews are realizing that ****ing off the Arabs is going to be to their own long-term detriment, unless of course they try to keep comtrol by creating some kind of apartheid state. Israel needs to keep all Arabs out of Israel forever. Israel is a state for Jews only. The Arabs have all the rest of the Middle East in which to live. -- Regards, Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota |
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"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message ... On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:38:48 -0600, "Ogg Oggibly" wrote in message : You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over the place for the next few days. I hope that when you die nobody dances on your grave in that way. I suspect that you are too insignificant for it to be a realistic prospect. Arafat was nothing if not a terrorist. That is all anyone ever has to know about him. Why the Europeans ever liked him is beyond comprehension. I attribute it to Jew hatred which is ever latent in Europe. -- Regards, Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota |
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"Eric Jorgensen" wrote in message news:20041111151019.3c219463@wafer... On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:38:48 -0600 "Ogg Oggibly" wrote: "Edward Dolan" wrote in message ... There has been quite a storm on this newsgroup recently with respect to Frank Olson of Canada and Peter Clinch of Scotland and what to make of the Muslims with respect to the War on Terrorism. Ogg and I have tried to point out that the Muslims are by no means peace loving and in fact are part of the problem throughout the world. Here is an article which I am posting in full so that all the dunderheads can get a clue about what is happening in the world. Even the Dutch, the most tolerant and liberal people in the world, are starting to have second thoughts about them. Read the article and weep - for the West and for civilization. You may be interested in the following link to an Arafat obit. in the New York Sun. It's not the standard liberal pap you will be seeing all over the place for the next few days. I don't think either side of that conflict can claim clean hands and clear conscience. Or even admirable intentions. Just what you get when Yahweh tells two groups of people that the same chunk of land is both holy and theirs alone. Palestine and the Palestinians did not even exist as a conscious entity until the Jews laid claim to the land. [...] A few years ago there was a court ruling in israel denying citizenship to members of an african tribe who practice an aincent form of judaism. How can all this be? I thought it was about religion. Don't be such an asshole. Being Jew is much more than just religion. It is about an ethnic group that goes back thousands of years. Those Africans were no more Jews than you and I. [...] I can't condone anything the PLO has ever done. But i understand why they're so ****ed off. Israel ought to remove all the Arabs off any land they consider to be their own. They can all go to Jordan and rot there. Israel has every right to do this by their military victories. In the end, might makes right. The main thing Israel should never do is listen to whimpering liberals like you. -- Regards, Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota |
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