Adventure Cycling Maps SUCK!

In article .com,
"NYC XYZ" wrote:

Tim McNamara wrote:

Mine aren't. They're printed on heavy coated paper.

Nit-picking over details won't help your argument at all.

What argument? I'm telling you my experience with Adventure Cycling's
maps. There's no argument- it's a statement of fact. Jeez, dude, you
really should consider having an assholectomy.

Someone's already pointed out that they're waterproof. While a
dramatic and welcome improvement over my original diagnosis, the
spirit of my disappointment remains: paper just isn't rugged enough.
If it were laminated, it would not only be waterproof, but also
tear-proof! Plus, you'd be able to mark it up with grease pencils,
for those of you who were in the infantry.

My maps are not laminated but they have not torn despite being stuck in
panniers, pulled out and consulted, etc. They ended the tour looking as
good as when they started. The coated paper is pretty tough.

Anyone who would like to eat when out on tour, perhaps.

Yeah, and what's the point of using up all that space for info which
needs to be updated, given how many places move or close altogether?
Doesn't anyone just ask a local anymore?

Perhaps. But the maps at least provide a starting point.

Well, I bought my maps about 2000, so perhaps things have changed.
Mine were very good, both in terms of the material and also the
information on the maps. Sorry to hear you were disappointed.

I'm sorry too. I believe in their mission and I still support them,
of course, but I'm quite puzzled why the obvious has escaped them for
so long.

Then send them some feedback about their maps. Kvetching here won't do
jack **** about what you perceive as the problem. Too bad you insist on
making perfect the enemy of good.

To wit:

1) Lamination means waterproof, tear-proof, and markable.

So, have yours laminated. Duh.

2) Spiral-bound means convenience and even more durability.

Spiral bound is fine in a car. It would be a PITA on a bike tour.

3) Alternate routes, even if available separately, not only shows
real expertise and "craftsmanship," but also increases product
utility.

The maps and routes are developed by people like you, who have ridden
the routes and contact Adventure Cycling to offer correct information.
I sent them corrections for the maps covering the area where I live.
They're very happy to receive that information. If you know a better
route, or an alternate route, send it in. There's no way for Adventure
Cycling to know about local problems such as construction, road closures
due to natural disasters, restaurant closures, etc. unless tourists
using the maps tell them.

If you can't be bothered with being part of the solution, then at least
stop being a bitch.

4) Enlarged maps (i.e., map panels) afford better readability and do
away with the annoying different directional-orientation from panel
to panel (currently, "north" points every which way from panel to
panel for space-saving purposes).

Develop a little mental flexibility, dude. It's easy. Space saving is
good- you don't want to be dealing with a 48 x 48 inch map on a windy
day. BTW these are route maps, not area maps. You want a map of an
area, buy one.

I don't care if the maps are $40 each. I'd get them if they're
valuable. And I think most anybody else would, too. All bike-lovers
support bike advocacy (as y'all know, Adventure Cycling is a
non-profit public-interest organization), so price wouldn't be too
much of an issue, I believe. Besides, touring cyclists are unlikely
to begrudge the price of a good map.

And the maps I've gotten from Adventure Cycling have been very good.

In article ,
wrote:

Tim McNamara wrote:


Well, I bought my maps about 2000, so perhaps things have changed.
Mine were very good, both in terms of the material and also the
information on the maps. Sorry to hear you were disappointed.

I just subscribed to Ac so good to hear they sub was worth it!

I found the maps very good, with well thought out routes that avoided
most of the unpleasantness of urban areas and good scenic value in rural
areas. And I found the construction of the maps to be fine. The
magazine isn't bad either.

NYC XYZ wrote:
Tim McNamara wrote:

Mine aren't. They're printed on heavy coated paper.

Nit-picking over details won't help your argument at all.

Someone's already pointed out that they're waterproof. While a
dramatic and welcome improvement over my original diagnosis, the spirit
of my disappointment remains: paper just isn't rugged enough. If it
were laminated, it would not only be waterproof, but also tear-proof!
Plus, you'd be able to mark it up with grease pencils, for those of you
who were in the infantry.

Anyone who would like to eat when out on tour, perhaps.

Yeah, and what's the point of using up all that space for info which
needs to be updated, given how many places move or close altogether?
Doesn't anyone just ask a local anymore?

Well, I bought my maps about 2000, so perhaps things have changed. Mine
were very good, both in terms of the material and also the information
on the maps. Sorry to hear you were disappointed.

I'm sorry too. I believe in their mission and I still support them, of
course, but I'm quite puzzled why the obvious has escaped them for so
long.

To wit:

1) Lamination means waterproof, tear-proof, and markable.

2) Spiral-bound means convenience and even more durability.

3) Alternate routes, even if available separately, not only shows real
expertise and "craftsmanship," but also increases product utility.

4) Enlarged maps (i.e., map panels) afford better readability and do
away with the annoying different directional-orientation from panel to
panel (currently, "north" points every which way from panel to panel
for space-saving purposes).


I don't care if the maps are $40 each. I'd get them if they're
valuable. And I think most anybody else would, too. All bike-lovers
support bike advocacy (as y'all know, Adventure Cycling is a non-profit
public-interest organization), so price wouldn't be too much of an
issue, I believe. Besides, touring cyclists are unlikely to begrudge
the price of a good map.

Perhaps they shouldn't even be selling paper maps. All they really need
to do is offer the routes in formats that people can pull into the
mapping software of their choice. They currently provide way point
files that are keyed to the maps of the routes. I've found these to be
compatible with the MapSource program from Garmin that I use. They're
probably compatible with other popular mapping software.

Getting out of the map business would permit them to focus resources on
managing routes more effectively. Tying the online routes with the
addenda they now offer online would be nice. It would also be nice if
there was some way for members to post variations to the official route
way points. The new routes formed by these way points could be rated by
other Adventure Cycling members based on various criteria, such as
hilliness, quality of the road, availability of services, number of
problem dogs, etc. After verification by enough members, these
alternate routes could become official.

One of the products that they could sell in their store could be good
quality, waterproof paper, such as National Geographic does through
their site. That way you could print what you want at whatever level of
detail you want.

They should still sell maps, but just be a reseller of other
organizations/companies maps. I still like a good, large folded map of
an area. I find it's easier to get the big picture from a folded map
than either maps in a book or online maps. If I'm not familiar with an
area I find maps in a book format to be too fragmented. In my
experience, online maps suffer from the way they drop roads as they zoom
out to cover a larger area. This makes it difficult to determine if a
back road is a good alternate route. GPS units compliment printed maps,
but their tiny screens and diminishing level of detail as you zoom out
lessens their usefulness in many situations. Plus, maps are always
'on', whereas GPS units require batteries.

---
John Knez

R Brickston wrote:


It doesn't take much imagination, vision or the ability to conceive
the future, to understand how you will not have a good a tour as your
second one will be.

It doesn't need to take all this pussy-footing around with words to say
what you really mean.

See above response.

Ditto.

Tim McNamara wrote:


What argument? I'm telling you my experience with Adventure Cycling's
maps. There's no argument- it's a statement of fact.

In responding to my impressions with your own differing impressions, we
are debating the matter. Thus our positions are known as "arguments."

Jeez, dude, you
really should consider having an assholectomy.

You know, I'm not sure if you need a good dictionary -- or just a giant
dick in your mouth.

My maps are not laminated but they have not torn despite being stuck in
panniers, pulled out and consulted, etc. They ended the tour looking as
good as when they started. The coated paper is pretty tough.

Nonetheless, lamination would guarantee that they do not fall apart.
It could be that you fold your maps very carefully, as I do.

Perhaps. But the maps at least provide a starting point.

Not much use if you have to check AC's website for amendments and
addenda.

Then send them some feedback about their maps. Kvetching here won't do
jack **** about what you perceive as the problem.

Hey chuckle-head, how many times do you write the President?

Too bad you insist on
making perfect the enemy of good.

Too bad you insist on making pots the enemies of kettles.

So, have yours laminated. Duh.

I want them to come that way. Duh.

Spiral bound is fine in a car. It would be a PITA on a bike tour.

No it wouldn't. How so?

The maps and routes are developed by people like you, who have ridden
the routes and contact Adventure Cycling to offer correct information.
I sent them corrections for the maps covering the area where I live.
They're very happy to receive that information. If you know a better
route, or an alternate route, send it in. There's no way for Adventure
Cycling to know about local problems such as construction, road closures
due to natural disasters, restaurant closures, etc. unless tourists
using the maps tell them.



If you can't be bothered with being part of the solution, then at least
stop being a bitch.

Is your bitching about my bitching more helpful?

Develop a little mental flexibility, dude.

You should try some of your own medicine, doctor.

It's easy.

Obviously hard in your case.

Space saving is
good-

Not if the trade-off is flipping your map around to orient north.
Especially since most people like to follow things on a map for as long
a time as possible without distraction.

you don't want to be dealing with a 48 x 48 inch map on a windy
day.

Who's talking about a four foot map?

BTW these are route maps, not area maps. You want a map of an
area, buy one.

If you're upset, go kill yourself.

And the maps I've gotten from Adventure Cycling have been very good.

And the maps I've gotten from AC have been okay -- and only because
they're the only ones on the market.

In article om,
"NYC XYZ" wrote:

Tim McNamara wrote:

What argument? I'm telling you my experience with Adventure
Cycling's maps. There's no argument- it's a statement of fact.

In responding to my impressions with your own differing impressions,
we are debating the matter. Thus our positions are known as
"arguments."

LOL. There was no argument. There is now, of course, since you're just
being a prick.

Jeez, dude, you really should consider having an assholectomy.

You know, I'm not sure if you need a good dictionary -- or just a
giant dick in your mouth.

Surely you can do better than that. 12 year olds have better repartee.

My maps are not laminated but they have not torn despite being
stuck in panniers, pulled out and consulted, etc. They ended the
tour looking as good as when they started. The coated paper is
pretty tough.

Nonetheless, lamination would guarantee that they do not fall apart.
It could be that you fold your maps very carefully, as I do.

Perhaps. But the maps at least provide a starting point.

Not much use if you have to check AC's website for amendments and
addenda.

You don't have to get the updated information if you don't want to. Or
do you expect them to update and reprint the maps on a monthly basis?
Shee-it, my state's Department of Transportation doesn't even update its
maps annually- just reprints the same maps with a new year on the front.

Then send them some feedback about their maps. Kvetching here
won't do jack **** about what you perceive as the problem.

Hey chuckle-head, how many times do you write the President?

I was taught to never try to teach a pig to sing- it's a waste of time
and annoys the pig. So I don't write to the President. He'll be gone
eventually.

Too bad you insist on making perfect the enemy of good.

Too bad you insist on making pots the enemies of kettles.

Sheesh. If this is a battle wits, you appear to be unarmed.

So, have yours laminated. Duh.

I want them to come that way. Duh.

Spiral bound is fine in a car. It would be a PITA on a bike tour.

No it wouldn't. How so?

Trying to fit in into the map holder on top of my handlebar bag would be
impossible. Sliding it in and out of a pannier pocket with the comb
catching on the fabric would be a nuisance. Having to handle all the
maps at all times instead of just the section I need for the day would
be cumbersome.

The maps and routes are developed by people like you, who have
ridden the routes and contact Adventure Cycling to offer correct
information. I sent them corrections for the maps covering the area
where I live. They're very happy to receive that information. If
you know a better route, or an alternate route, send it in.
There's no way for Adventure Cycling to know about local problems
such as construction, road closures due to natural disasters,
restaurant closures, etc. unless tourists using the maps tell them.

If you can't be bothered with being part of the solution, then at
least stop being a bitch.

Is your bitching about my bitching more helpful?

Develop a little mental flexibility, dude.

You should try some of your own medicine, doctor.

It's easy.

Obviously hard in your case.

No, it's pretty simple to orient the map, if necessary, or just to
reorient it in my mind. I don't know why you would find that so hard to
do. Either your sense of direction or your sense of spatial relations
is impaired.

Space saving is good-

Not if the trade-off is flipping your map around to orient north.
Especially since most people like to follow things on a map for as
long a time as possible without distraction.

I prefer to follow the road. The map is only a reference tool.

you don't want to be dealing with a 48 x 48 inch map on a windy
day.

Who's talking about a four foot map?

Hey, you've gotta make a choice. A compact map that takes a slight
mental effort on your part to use, or a large map with contiguous
routing information. Adventure Cycling has assumed that their customers
have the wits to make use of and appreciate the former. You appear to
be an exception.

BTW these are route maps, not area maps. You want a map of an
area, buy one.

If you're upset, go kill yourself.

And the maps I've gotten from Adventure Cycling have been very
good.

And the maps I've gotten from AC have been okay -- and only because
they're the only ones on the market.

And yet you grouse on and on about them. LOL!

On 21 Aug 2006 08:37:40 -0700, "NYC XYZ"
wrote:


R Brickston wrote:


It doesn't take much imagination, vision or the ability to conceive
the future, to understand how you will not have a good a tour as your
second one will be.

It doesn't need to take all this pussy-footing around with words to say
what you really mean.

See above response.

Ditto.

Reading all your responses on this topic, I just realized that you're
one of those rare individuals that are never wrong. Good luck (not
that you'll need it, of course).

Which is, of course, merely another way of saying that *you're* never
wrong.

Just what is it with you sissies? You think people can't parse your
passive-agressive bull****?



R Brickston wrote:


Reading all your responses on this topic, I just realized that you're
one of those rare individuals that are never wrong. Good luck (not
that you'll need it, of course).

On 22 Aug 2006 07:30:18 -0700, "NYC XYZ"
wrote:


Which is, of course, merely another way of saying that *you're* never
wrong.

Just what is it with you sissies? You think people can't parse your
passive-agressive bull****?


Damn! You're absolutely right, yet *again*. Amazing.



R Brickston wrote:


Reading all your responses on this topic, I just realized that you're
one of those rare individuals that are never wrong. Good luck (not
that you'll need it, of course).

Tim McNamara wrote:


LOL. There was no argument. There is now, of course, since you're just
being a prick.

Just look up the word "argument" in a dictionary before you argue
whether there is an "argument" here, butt-scab.

Surely you can do better than that. 12 year olds have better repartee.

Is that why you can't think of anything better to say, since you're all
of eight-and-a-half yourself?

You don't have to get the updated information if you don't want to.

Outdated info is no use on a map. Data that's ever-changing wastes
space.

Or
do you expect them to update and reprint the maps on a monthly basis?

I just done tol' ya how I would like the maps done, ****-stain.

Shee-it, my state's Department of Transportation doesn't even update its
maps annually- just reprints the same maps with a new year on the front.

Good for you. Write them a nice letter.

I was taught to never try to teach a pig to sing- it's a waste of time
and annoys the pig. So I don't write to the President. He'll be gone
eventually.

Then stop bitching.

Sheesh. If this is a battle wits, you appear to be unarmed.

If this were a battle of wits, I'd be arrested for child abuse.

Trying to fit in into the map holder on top of my handlebar bag would be
impossible.

There are bigger map holders. Alternately, the spiral-bound "mapbook"
can be made small enough, etc.

Sliding it in and out of a pannier pocket with the comb
catching on the fabric would be a nuisance. Having to handle all the
maps at all times instead of just the section I need for the day would
be cumbersome.

Who says you couldn't have just the section you need?

No, it's pretty simple to orient the map, if necessary, or just to
reorient it in my mind.

Yes, and it's easy getting up to change the channel -- why did they
ever invent the remote?

I don't know why you would find that so hard to
do.

Not hard -- just unnecessary. And it looks amateurish.

If they want to resort to panels, then a book-format is better. This
also allows for each panel to be bigger, and affords them all the same
north-orientation from page to page. The eye can thusmore smoothly
follow the route from panel to panel, and the mind more readily imagine
the trip and thus contain the whole map for future on-the-fly mental
reference.

Either your sense of direction or your sense of spatial relations
is impaired.

Obviously, you have no imagination. We'd never even gotten the wheel
were the world full of folks like you ("wheels? I have feet!"), much
less the bicycle.

I prefer to follow the road. The map is only a reference tool.

I am talking about researching the trip beforehand.

And a reference tool should be as simple as possible. Flipping around
little 2x4 panels (they're even smaller than I'd thought) from one to
the other to orient north and then connect it in one's mind with
another "differently-oriented" panel should be be at a cut-off from one
panel to the next does not sound very "handy" to me.

Hey, you've gotta make a choice. A compact map that takes a slight
mental effort on your part to use, or a large map with contiguous
routing information.

Those are not the only options. As I've outlined already, it can be a
book -- the particular dimensions aren't important now, and can always
be modified as "field requirements" dictate.

Adventure Cycling has assumed that their customers
have the wits to make use of and appreciate the former. You appear to
be an exception.

You must be a very stupid man since you're so concerned about
intelligence.

Truly intelligent people like myself take it as a matter of course, and
do not consider it stupidity to improve on existing conditions, however
currently feasible.

And yet you grouse on and on about them. LOL!

Since when is responding to you people "grousing on and on"?

Oh, I get it, I'm supposed to ignore you morons.

Fair enough. I shall.

Have a nice life! Don't forget to wear your helmets -- the tighter the
better!