Frame Kit vs. Basic Model?

Edward Dolan wrote:
We on ARBR no
longer have any interest in uprights, knowing how uncomfortable they are,
but it may be that in time many of you presently on uprights will come
around to recumbents.

I am 100% comfortable on my upright. I feel better on my bike than in
my Aeron at work. You can't assume that just because you are
uncomfortable on them that everyone else is too.

I'd like to have a bent one day I think, but not as a replacement for
anything. I think it would be cool to get a faring and really tear it
up on the flats. For the most part though, I like being able to hop
hazards, cheat curbs, trackstand, climb Jester (Austin), etc on my
upright (in complete comfort).

-Mike

Peter Clinch wrote:


Yes, but OTOH no more so than cars. You don't buy a Ford Taurus, end of
story, you select the model from the range and then you decide on
options. People seem to manage with that, and have done for years.

Oh God...when I finally have a family, etc., I'll see you on
alt.rec.cars.duh....

Is coffee really /that/ much harder to buy because Starbucks give you
options beyond cream and sugar?

Actually, yes -- I had no idea until Starbucks (blush) that folks had
cream in their coffee!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Mike Reed wrote:

I am 100% comfortable on my upright. I feel better on my bike than in
my Aeron at work.

So if it's peerlessly comfortable you go to sleep on it, and have
similar saddles and handrests in place of the chairs in your living
room? Doubt it... My uprights are comfortable: I use a Brompton for
more trips by number than I use my 'bent, but the 'bent is *more*
comfortable and that's a fact. The longer the journey the bigger the
advantage, even though the Brompton is /not/ uncomfortable.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Jon Meinecke wrote:
"Peter Clinch" wrote
Is coffee really /that/ much harder to buy because Starbucks give you
options beyond cream and sugar?

To buy, perhaps somewhat harder,-- more information to communicate,
more possibility of misunderstanding and more possibility of fulfillment
error. I asked for a "double-what's-it-extra-foamy" not an
"extra-what's-it-double-foamy"... %^)

Though the fact remains that I can walk in and say "Black coffee
please!" and get a black coffee PDQ...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Buck wrote:


You are forgetting the costs of labor to install all of these upgrades.
The labor has already been spent on configuring the bike as it
currently sits. Often when they upgrade parts at point of sale, the
upgrades are being charged to you for near their cost with little or
nothing thrown in to cover the additional labor.

What labor is involved? Well, you mention suspension and upgrades to
disc brakes. They have to order, receive and prep all of the parts. The
new front shock will likely need the steering tube cut. If you went
with cable-actuated discs, they may be able to re-use the cables, but
most likely they will have to cut new cables and housings for the
brakes. Since the sizes of the previous cables are pretty specific, the
"old" ones will likely end up in the trash. If you went with hydraulic,
then they have no choice but to run new hydraulic tubing.

Well, sure, and there's his electric bills and rent, on top of it
all...but at what point does that become "my responsibility" as a
customer? You charge what you charge; I pay what I can afford. The
issue here is whether paying for a bike that includes a fork, then
upgrading to a better fork for more money, means (or should mean) that
I keep the old fork or get a discount. Someone else mentioned that the
cost of the upgrade is actually cheaper than getting the upgrade later
on, "separately," because that discount for the old fork, etc., is
"built-in" to the cost of the upgrade at the initial POS...and that
sounds reasonable, if that's how things really work...again, I don't
know; just wondering, but seriously wondering, as we're talking big
bucks here (for me, anyway).

Once the installation process is complete, then everything has to be
adjusted so it works properly. In all, you are talking about several
hours worth of additional labor that has to be paid for. Remember, the
initial costs for configuring the bike were already added into the
price and the original labor for setup is essentially lost.

Well, this is what I'm wondering -- the labor is always factored into
the cost, isn't it? Does any bike dealer list labor as a separate line
item when selling a bike, a whole bike? HP Velo's own official price
list, previously linked, explicitly states that prices include labor,
installation!

Don't begrude the dealer keeping the parts. It helps him recoup the
additional cost of getting your butt on the bike. He hopes that later
you will come in and buy something more profitable like additional
upgrades and accessories.

Please believe me when I say that I am paying full retail as it is. I
did not haggle him at all, and he's going out of business soon! But
fair is fair: if I'm paying for the option which comes with a fork, and
I elect to upgrade the fork, well, why should he keep the old fork
while charging me for the option which comes with a fork?

I'm not trying to penny-pinch here; just hate feeling taken advantage
of. If this is industry practice, well, I guess I can tolerate it
better, perhaps -- but that's why I ask y'all. I want to know. If
you're paying $$$$ for a whole bike, and then pay some more $$$$ for
all the upgrades, either you'd just get the framekit and pay for the
upgrades or get the whole bike and keep "the old stuff" or get the
whole bike and get a discount if the dealer keeps "the old stuff."
Does that sound so controversial?

I'm asking in earnest here; not being rhetorical at all. Like I said,
I'd rather hash this out with you all now than ask him later and make
it seem like I'm trying to take advantage of him when I'm just being
logical about it, I think.

-Buck

In article ,
Peter Clinch writes:
Mike Reed wrote:

I am 100% comfortable on my upright. I feel better on my bike than in
my Aeron at work.

So if it's peerlessly comfortable you go to sleep on it, and have
similar saddles and handrests in place of the chairs in your living
room?

But beds and living room chairs aren't for riding, and bicycle saddles
aren't for sitting.


cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Mike Reed wrote:


I am 100% comfortable on my upright. I feel better on my bike than in
my Aeron at work.

I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU MEAN!!! Those expensive $1,000 Aeron chairs
are extremely comfy, but the 'bent, wow, like an SMGTe, I could fall
asleep in!!!!

You can't assume that just because you are
uncomfortable on them that everyone else is too.

But I do wonder why the SMGTe isn't more widely-mentioned...everyone
talks about Rans and Easy Racers, etc. They look like "garage-jobs"
done by engineering students. (Not a pejorative, that opinion, BTW.)

I'd like to have a bent one day I think, but not as a replacement for
anything.

I agree -- I can still see a need for my upwrong, which is very comfy
to me, my great Trek 1000c, with which I've done 800 miles in three
months of riding. But for those long trips now, it's gonna be 'bent
all the way, baby! The DF will be for stores and when running with the
wolves.

I think it would be cool to get a faring and really tear it
up on the flats. For the most part though, I like being able to hop
hazards, cheat curbs, trackstand, climb Jester (Austin), etc on my
upright (in complete comfort).

I think most folks would choose a 'bent if only 1) the knew about
'bents in the first place; 2) the costs weren't so prohibitive; 3) it
had sex appeal. There's a time and place for DFs, but "normally" (in a
"normative" rather than "descriptive" sense) 'bents would be the norm,
not the exception.

-Mike

Tom Keats wrote:

But beds and living room chairs aren't for riding, and bicycle saddles
aren't for sitting.

But "100% comfortable" suggests there is no possible improvement to be
made. In which case it should be just as good as an armchair for
sitting on and not riding. It isn't, so there;s obviously some ground
lost somewhere despite the posted "100%".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

NYC XYZ wrote:

But I do wonder why the SMGTe isn't more widely-mentioned...everyone
talks about Rans and Easy Racers, etc. They look like "garage-jobs"
done by engineering students.

a.r.b.r is Americentric, those bikes are easier to get hold of in N.
America. In the UK nobody much talks about them because they're not
available, while there are, oooh, at least two shops in the country you
can test ride a Streetmachine at.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

NYC XYZ wrote:
You can't assume that just because you are
uncomfortable on them that everyone else is too.


But I do wonder why the SMGTe isn't more widely-mentioned...everyone
talks about Rans and Easy Racers, etc. They look like "garage-jobs"
done by engineering students. (Not a pejorative, that opinion, BTW.)

Presumably you're referring to widely in the U.S?

HPVelotechnik is in Europe and have very few stocking dealers in the
U.S. And even their cheapest models are up there on the recumbent
pricing scale once they get over The Pond.

Is it any wonder they're not as well known as brands with wider domestic
distribution and/or lower price points?

Having said that, I'd love to have an SMGTe or a Speed Machine. When my
taste decides that I want to have an USS bike that really works for me
(my legs are too short for my ActionBent Tidal Wave in stop and go
traffic), I'd put any of the HPV bikes right at the top of my list.

I'd like to have a bent one day I think, but not as a replacement for
anything.

I agree -- I can still see a need for my upwrong, which is very comfy
to me, my great Trek 1000c, with which I've done 800 miles in three
months of riding. But for those long trips now, it's gonna be 'bent
all the way, baby! The DF will be for stores and when running with the
wolves.

Me too. My DF road bike is pretty comfy now that I've tossed away the
comfort gizmos like a suspension seat post, split saddle and "body
geometry" handlebars w/ adjustable stem.

It can still be painful if I'm lazy and "sit too hard" on the saddle.

I think it would be cool to get a faring and really tear it
up on the flats. For the most part though, I like being able to hop
hazards, cheat curbs, trackstand, climb Jester (Austin), etc on my
upright (in complete comfort).


I think most folks would choose a 'bent if only 1) the knew about
'bents in the first place;

Yep, and that's partly why fews mention the HPVelo SMGTe :-).

2) the costs weren't so prohibitive;

A decent 'bent can be had for $700 these days.

3) it had sex appeal.

Folks who think 'bents aren't sexy haven't seen the Velokraft VK2, or
the Challenge Seiran, or a Carbent, or a Karl Swanson custome bike, or
insert your favorite, aesthetically pleasing bents...

There's a time and place for DFs, but "normally" (in a
"normative" rather than "descriptive" sense) 'bents would be the norm,
not the exception.


-Mike




--
I do not accept unsolicited commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE for
legitimate replies.