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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
Tom Kunich wrote: wrote in message ups.com... steve wrote: Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no doubt). What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm? There is certainly a great degree of social mobility, but not on the scale found in the US. There are ethnic issues related to this as well. Nationality is based on ethnicity (despite what folks wish to believe) which makes integration of "foreigners" difficult. This does not help the mobility situation. The so-called pro-worker laws that make it hard to fire people reinforces the old-boy networks where people get jobs from people they know, or when to some exclusive school with. This of course happens in the US too, but at least in the US a kid from a trailer park or the projects who does well in school has a chance of getting a good job where they can prove their worth. In Europe hiring "unkowns" like this can be too risky as they can't be fired if they turn out to be flakes, so people like that have a hard time getting jobs. This is the real problem with mobility there. A former in-law of my brother did somewhat well in Germany. He tried to move to the USA where he believed his business would thrive. The USA wouldn't let a German immigrate. He moved to Australia and is presently a multimillionaire. If he could have done that in Germany he'd have stayed. That is a perfect example of the European "brain drain". I read an article (in the Economist of all places?) which said something like 100,000 (or some other huge number) European higher education students in the US do not plan to go back. It was like 90% of the students. Joseph |
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
Tom Kunich wrote:
"Revtom" wrote in message oups.com... Unsubstantiated accusations The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class of the US. are followed by wishful thinking This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying. Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their ability if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can discover simply by talking to any factory worker. Of course, one can read more widely and get closer to the truth. The recent Economist article has already been cited. Here are others: http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0127/p21s01-coop.html http://www.cipa-apex.org/toomuch/art...05/May23a.html and an interesting summary of the research: http://www.urban.org/publications/406722.html As an immigrant and naturalized citizen the great appeal of the US is that amidst the clutter and noise of the extremists, there is the calm center where reasoned discussion prevails. Although, of late, it seems that the center has shrunk or maybe it's just because I'm spending my time on rbr. Gabe Brovedani |
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
"Jack Maars" wrote in message news:Q%LEg.410631$Mn5.87970@pd7tw3no... wrote in message ups.com... Is this in response to the usual stereotype that bicycle racing success serves to rescue destitute European men from dismal futures slaving away in coal mines? People have been reading too many back-issues of Winning Magazine again. Ergo, Dope or grab a pick-axe. Yea, now it's Dope or answer the phone in a call center. Actually, it seems Euro peloton riders who have to retire unexpectedly early work in construction |
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
"Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote in message nk.net... "Revtom" wrote in message oups.com... The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class of the US. See? I told you that idiots are everywhere. Why imagine the fright Europeans have when they discover that the median income for the "lower" classes in a place where wages are very low - Miami - are $35K/year. Try Arkansas or Mississippi for very low wages and 'brain drain'. |
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
"Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote in message nk.net... "Revtom" wrote in message oups.com... The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class of the US. See? I told you that idiots are everywhere. Why imagine the fright Europeans have when they discover that the median income for the "lower" classes in a place where wages are very low - Miami - are $35K/year. What's more, 95% of ALL taxes are paid by the upper half of all income earners. Did you know that you can own your own home and have a new car and be on welfare? This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying. Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their ability if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can discover simply by talking to any factory worker. Too bad that revtom doesn't understand what he doesn't understand. Read and learn. http://www.classism.org/index.php |
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:56:22 GMT, "steve" wrote:
Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no doubt). What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm? "Americans have no need of communism. They change occupations and social standing the way a European changes shirts." Karl Marx, Das Kapital Ron |
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
In article ,
"steve" wrote: Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no doubt). What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm? I am not European. The rich say that the poor will always be with us. Which is to say there will always be a class system. Those who decry the class system whether it be overt or de facto are those who most want to join the ruling class. -- Michael Press |
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
in 523429 20060816 222509 "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying. Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their ability if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can discover simply by talking to any factory worker. ********, Tom (as usual). Both Margaret Thatcher and John Major came from humble beginnings. The majority of Britain's wealthy people are "self-made". |
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