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#21
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Clipless pedals no more efficient than flat?
On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 22:16:22 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
wrote: On Wednesday, August 12, 2020 at 5:28:05 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 6:03:46 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/11/2020 6:05 PM, jbeattie wrote: I certainly pulled up or across the pedal when track racing, and if I pulled out, it could be catastrophic -- and thus double straps and later clipless (some racers used clipless and straps). Foot retention is important when sprinting and climbing out of the saddle. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...0.2020.1769201 It's a shame they didn't test stiff soled cycling shoes with toe clips. For a long time those were the default choice for avid cyclists. They're still my choice for long rides. But I'll point out, that paper (apparently) did not measure efficiency. The power improvements were huge (9.7?±?8.7% power gain by adding toe clips to soft shoes, and 16.6?±?10.2% gain with rigid shoes and clipless). On a five percent grade, that corresponds to a very noticeable increase in speed. If those gains were due to lack of efficiency of soft soles, those soles must have been soaking up a hell of a lot of power. That means they should get very hot. We can discuss this, but I suspect a lot of the gains measured were due to the "red bikes are faster" effect. Testers were probably preconditioned to think toe clips help a lot, and REAL cycling shoes and clipless are what professionals use. That's a recipe for a powerful placebo. If not that, then what made the power difference? Where would the power have been previously lost? We should be able to talk about that in detail. And shoes can make a big difference. I remember going from Detto, Vittoria or Italia (they all blended together) bicycling/bowling shoes of yore with little steel stiffeners and nail on cleats to Duegis with wood soles and bolt-on plastic cleats. https://www.classicsteelbikes.com/wp...-1-600x400.jpg That was huge -- like going from Michelin 50s to Vittoria CGs (I never rode silks). That was probably the single biggest component improvement I ever had. Again, we should be able to analyze the exact source of the improvement. The shoes are not a source of power; they are a simple device for transmitting power from your foot to the pedal. I don't doubt that some changes allow better biomechanics and thus better power output. But it's hard for me to see how shoes do that. A couple of things: (1) your ankle is not a spring, dropping as the sole flexes. Old cycling shoes were really like bowling shoes and not very stiff. (2) Deeper, more secure cleats -- for better or worse. It was not a subtle change for me at all. Others agree: http://stevetilford.com/2016/05/26/cycling-shoes-2/ YMMV. These days, most high end shoes are stiff, light and give good support and the big deal is shape and comfort. I'm getting a pair of $400 S-Works shoes tomorrow for absolutely free when my son comes to visit. It will be my first set of boa shoes. I'll see how those work out. My SIDIs are giving me hotfoot and always have. The high-end Shimano shoes are supposed to be the bees knees, but I don't get those for free. -- Jay Beattie. You will like the BOA system. I am very disappointed in my SIDI shoes. Although they fit my wide feet the ratchening strap keeps loosening and only on my right foot. I have to tighten it 20 times during a ride. Crap. Because of the ordering disaster of my gravelbike I got a pair of LAKE MX238 for free as compensation. Those have two BOA knobs(?). They are the best shoes I ever had. So good that I got the road version of them shortly after(LAKE CX238). Lou I don't know about SIDI shoes but I have a pair of Shimano shoes with the ratcheting closer and at the time I bought the shoes I asked whether it was possible to "fix" the ratchet device if anything happened and the shop assured me that they had both ratchet and straps which could be easily changed. -- Cheers, John B. |
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#22
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Clipless pedals no more efficient than flat?
On Wednesday, August 12, 2020 at 7:30:34 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 22:16:22 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman wrote: On Wednesday, August 12, 2020 at 5:28:05 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 6:03:46 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/11/2020 6:05 PM, jbeattie wrote: I certainly pulled up or across the pedal when track racing, and if I pulled out, it could be catastrophic -- and thus double straps and later clipless (some racers used clipless and straps). Foot retention is important when sprinting and climbing out of the saddle. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...0.2020.1769201 It's a shame they didn't test stiff soled cycling shoes with toe clips. For a long time those were the default choice for avid cyclists. They're still my choice for long rides. But I'll point out, that paper (apparently) did not measure efficiency. The power improvements were huge (9.7?Ä…?8.7% power gain by adding toe clips to soft shoes, and 16.6?Ä…?10.2% gain with rigid shoes and clipless). On a five percent grade, that corresponds to a very noticeable increase in speed. If those gains were due to lack of efficiency of soft soles, those soles must have been soaking up a hell of a lot of power. That means they should get very hot. We can discuss this, but I suspect a lot of the gains measured were due to the "red bikes are faster" effect. Testers were probably preconditioned to think toe clips help a lot, and REAL cycling shoes and clipless are what professionals use. That's a recipe for a powerful placebo. If not that, then what made the power difference? Where would the power have been previously lost? We should be able to talk about that in detail. And shoes can make a big difference. I remember going from Detto, Vittoria or Italia (they all blended together) bicycling/bowling shoes of yore with little steel stiffeners and nail on cleats to Duegis with wood soles and bolt-on plastic cleats. https://www.classicsteelbikes.com/wp...-1-600x400.jpg That was huge -- like going from Michelin 50s to Vittoria CGs (I never rode silks). That was probably the single biggest component improvement I ever had. Again, we should be able to analyze the exact source of the improvement. The shoes are not a source of power; they are a simple device for transmitting power from your foot to the pedal. I don't doubt that some changes allow better biomechanics and thus better power output. But it's hard for me to see how shoes do that. A couple of things: (1) your ankle is not a spring, dropping as the sole flexes. Old cycling shoes were really like bowling shoes and not very stiff. (2) Deeper, more secure cleats -- for better or worse. It was not a subtle change for me at all. Others agree: http://stevetilford.com/2016/05/26/cycling-shoes-2/ YMMV. These days, most high end shoes are stiff, light and give good support and the big deal is shape and comfort. I'm getting a pair of $400 S-Works shoes tomorrow for absolutely free when my son comes to visit. It will be my first set of boa shoes. I'll see how those work out. My SIDIs are giving me hotfoot and always have. The high-end Shimano shoes are supposed to be the bees knees, but I don't get those for free. -- Jay Beattie. You will like the BOA system. I am very disappointed in my SIDI shoes. Although they fit my wide feet the ratchening strap keeps loosening and only on my right foot. I have to tighten it 20 times during a ride. Crap. Because of the ordering disaster of my gravelbike I got a pair of LAKE MX238 for free as compensation. Those have two BOA knobs(?). They are the best shoes I ever had. So good that I got the road version of them shortly after(LAKE CX238). Lou I don't know about SIDI shoes but I have a pair of Shimano shoes with the ratcheting closer and at the time I bought the shoes I asked whether it was possible to "fix" the ratchet device if anything happened and the shop assured me that they had both ratchet and straps which could be easily changed. -- Cheers, John B. True but they showed this behavior from day one, so when new. I think it has something to do with my movement of my right foot riding out of the saddle and the SIDI system. They have this little 'button' which allows you to loosen the strap a bit during riding without losing completely, just one click. I think I trigger that feature unintentionally. Lou |
#23
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Clipless pedals no more efficient than flat?
I can get yards farther up a hill when I'm wearing cleats. But if those aren't enough yards to get me to the top, I have to sit down and change shoes. Now with the lack of exercise occasioned by surgery and a lack of places where it's safe for a seventy-nine-year-old to go, I just assume that I'm going to walk all hills right from the bottom, and wear my in-the-city shoes everywhere. Maybe next summer -- I was doing quite well in January and February, considering that it was January and February. (And the winter before that, and the winter before that -- but this year it took something really big *and* a personal swat to wreck my training.) -- Joy Beeson joy beeson at centurylink dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/ |
#24
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Clipless pedals no more efficient than flat?
On 8/11/2020 11:28 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 6:03:46 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/11/2020 6:05 PM, jbeattie wrote: I certainly pulled up or across the pedal when track racing, and if I pulled out, it could be catastrophic -- and thus double straps and later clipless (some racers used clipless and straps). Foot retention is important when sprinting and climbing out of the saddle. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...0.2020.1769201 It's a shame they didn't test stiff soled cycling shoes with toe clips. For a long time those were the default choice for avid cyclists. They're still my choice for long rides. But I'll point out, that paper (apparently) did not measure efficiency. The power improvements were huge (9.7 ± 8.7% power gain by adding toe clips to soft shoes, and 16.6 ± 10.2% gain with rigid shoes and clipless). On a five percent grade, that corresponds to a very noticeable increase in speed. If those gains were due to lack of efficiency of soft soles, those soles must have been soaking up a hell of a lot of power. That means they should get very hot. We can discuss this, but I suspect a lot of the gains measured were due to the "red bikes are faster" effect. Testers were probably preconditioned to think toe clips help a lot, and REAL cycling shoes and clipless are what professionals use. That's a recipe for a powerful placebo. If not that, then what made the power difference? Where would the power have been previously lost? We should be able to talk about that in detail. And shoes can make a big difference. I remember going from Detto, Vittoria or Italia (they all blended together) bicycling/bowling shoes of yore with little steel stiffeners and nail on cleats to Duegis with wood soles and bolt-on plastic cleats. https://www.classicsteelbikes.com/wp...-1-600x400.jpg That was huge -- like going from Michelin 50s to Vittoria CGs (I never rode silks). That was probably the single biggest component improvement I ever had. Again, we should be able to analyze the exact source of the improvement. The shoes are not a source of power; they are a simple device for transmitting power from your foot to the pedal. I don't doubt that some changes allow better biomechanics and thus better power output. But it's hard for me to see how shoes do that. A couple of things: (1) your ankle is not a spring, dropping as the sole flexes. Old cycling shoes were really like bowling shoes and not very stiff. (2) Deeper, more secure cleats -- for better or worse. It was not a subtle change for me at all. Others agree: http://stevetilford.com/2016/05/26/cycling-shoes-2/ YMMV. I'm not surprised that there are people who rhapsodize about shoes. And I know that certain shoes are more or less comfortable for certain riders, some shoes have better closure systems, etc. But to return to _technical_ discussion about power transfer: Again, the paper you linked could have tested stiff soled shoes with toe clips. Unfortunately it didn't. And it's true that "stiff" isn't a binary condition. But aside from commuting or utility riding, all the cycling shoes I've used (since Bata Bikers came on the scene) have seemed pretty stiff to me. Not as stiff as wooden soles, but then, nobody here has identified a mechanism for power loss through a sole that's a little less stiff. Thought experiment (since you mention springs): Place a spring with a high stiffness (say, 100 pounds per inch) on a bike pedal. Place a ten pound weight on that spring. It will sag 1/10 inch. What's the force on the pedal? Repeat with a spring that's less stiff (say, 50 pounds per inch). Place the same ten pound weight on that spring. It will sag 2/10 inch. What's the force on that pedal? The answer is the same in both cases: Pedal force is ten pounds. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#25
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Clipless pedals no more efficient than flat?
On 8/11/2020 10:03 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/11/2020 6:05 PM, jbeattie wrote: I certainly pulled up or across the pedal when track racing, and if I pulled out, it could be catastrophic -- and thus double straps and later clipless (some racers used clipless and straps). Foot retention is important when sprinting and climbing out of the saddle. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...0.2020.1769201 It's a shame they didn't test stiff soled cycling shoes with toe clips. For a long time those were the default choice for avid cyclists. They're still my choice for long rides. But I'll point out, that paper (apparently) did not measure efficiency. The power improvements were huge (9.7 ± 8.7% power gain by adding toe clips to soft shoes, and 16.6 ± 10.2% gain with rigid shoes and clipless). On a five percent grade, that corresponds to a very noticeable increase in speed. If those gains were due to lack of efficiency of soft soles, those soles must have been soaking up a hell of a lot of power. That means they should get very hot. We can discuss this, but I suspect a lot of the gains measured were due to the "red bikes are faster" effect. Testers were probably preconditioned to think toe clips help a lot, and REAL cycling shoes and clipless are what professionals use. That's a recipe for a powerful placebo. If not that, then what made the power difference? Where would the power have been previously lost? We should be able to talk about that in detail. And shoes can make a big difference. I remember going from Detto, Vittoria or Italia (they all blended together) bicycling/bowling shoes of yore with little steel stiffeners and nail on cleats to Duegis with wood soles and bolt-on plastic cleats. https://www.classicsteelbikes.com/wp...-1-600x400.jpg That was huge -- like going from Michelin 50s to Vittoria CGs (I never rode silks). That was probably the single biggest component improvement I ever had. Again, we should be able to analyze the exact source of the improvement. The shoes are not a source of power; they are a simple device for transmitting power from your foot to the pedal. I don't doubt that some changes allow better biomechanics and thus better power output. But it's hard for me to see how shoes do that. Hey Frank. Let me take a couple of guesses why track riders can put out more power with better shoes. 1) If you are not connected to the pedal in some way, you need to keep a minimum force on the pedal during the upstroke just to ensure enough friction that your door doesn’t slide off. If your shoe is clamped to the pedal (toe clips, power straps, clipless pedals), then you can apply zero or negative force to the pedal on the upstroke, with a commensurate increase in torque. Your efficiency may not increase, but without clamping your shoe to the pedal you cannot apply a force approaching or exceeding your body weight to the pedal. 2) If your shoe has a very soft sole, part of the force that you are applying to the pedal is also going to deform your foot. A stiff shoe may allow the large muscles in your legs to apply full force to the pedal without forcing the little muscles in your foot to tire themselves out trying to keep your foot from collapsing. I remain skeptical of major benefits from the mechanisms you describe. Here's why: 1) The "pull up" business ("zero or negative torque") has repeatedly been shown to be myth, at least for almost all riding. Many racers have sworn they pull up, but measurements have shown that they don't - at least, not enough to cause an actual upward force on the rear pedal. I don't doubt that some people apply an upward force on the rear pedal SOME time. I think I do it myself during brief hard efforts on hard climbs. But those are a minor portion of any ride. It's normal for the rear pedal to help lift the rider's leg. (As an aside, there have been many crazy designs for bike transmissions that required the rider to physically lift the leg, as opposed to having the pedal push it upward. Those have failed at least in part because of that extra muscular requirement.) 2) See my post responding to Jay about springs transmitting force to pedals. Stiff or less stiff, the force on the pedal is the same. And while others may vary, I've never, ever come home from a ride and said "Darn, the little muscles in my feet are fatigued!" -- - Frank Krygowski |
#26
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Clipless pedals no more efficient than flat?
On Wednesday, 12 August 2020 12:32:58 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/11/2020 10:03 PM, Ralph Barone wrote: Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/11/2020 6:05 PM, jbeattie wrote: I certainly pulled up or across the pedal when track racing, and if I pulled out, it could be catastrophic -- and thus double straps and later clipless (some racers used clipless and straps). Foot retention is important when sprinting and climbing out of the saddle. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...0.2020.1769201 It's a shame they didn't test stiff soled cycling shoes with toe clips.. For a long time those were the default choice for avid cyclists. They're still my choice for long rides. But I'll point out, that paper (apparently) did not measure efficiency.. The power improvements were huge (9.7 ± 8.7% power gain by adding toe clips to soft shoes, and 16.6 ± 10.2% gain with rigid shoes and clipless). On a five percent grade, that corresponds to a very noticeable increase in speed. If those gains were due to lack of efficiency of soft soles, those soles must have been soaking up a hell of a lot of power. That means they should get very hot. We can discuss this, but I suspect a lot of the gains measured were due to the "red bikes are faster" effect. Testers were probably preconditioned to think toe clips help a lot, and REAL cycling shoes and clipless are what professionals use. That's a recipe for a powerful placebo. If not that, then what made the power difference? Where would the power have been previously lost? We should be able to talk about that in detail. And shoes can make a big difference. I remember going from Detto, Vittoria or Italia (they all blended together) bicycling/bowling shoes of yore with little steel stiffeners and nail on cleats to Duegis with wood soles and bolt-on plastic cleats. https://www.classicsteelbikes.com/wp...-1-600x400.jpg That was huge -- like going from Michelin 50s to Vittoria CGs (I never rode silks). That was probably the single biggest component improvement I ever had. Again, we should be able to analyze the exact source of the improvement. |
#27
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Clipless pedals no more efficient than flat?
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 11:19:58 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 7:47:10 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 2:11:05 AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote: On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 3:49:48 AM UTC+2, bob prohaska wrote: I found this not-entirely-ancient video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE which posits that there's no efficiency gain using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in terms of rider performance. That's a considerable surprise. It certainly _felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps, and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals. Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet, marketing? Thanks for reading, bob prohaska The question is what is the power loss of flat pedals considering that you feet are positioned correctly? Being able to pull up with clipless doesn't per se mean it is more efficient. And efficiency isn't necessarily the same thing as power or speed, especially at less than maximum effort. For non-maximum power, lower efficiency may mean only that you'll want more snacks to replace more calories. I think the benefits of foot retention occur when sprinting at max effort, and perhaps when grinding up a climb at max effort - the only time I think it makes sense to consciously pull up in back. It's perhaps helpful on super-bumpy surfaces, to keep feet from slipping off pedals. But people used to claim huge power improvement when they moved from flat pedals to toe clips. People again claimed huge power improvements when they went from toe clips to clipless. I do think those claims are mistaken. - Frank Krygowski Efficiency is the ratio of what get out and what you put in, simple. What you pull on the during the up stroke you putting something in and here are claims that this is not efficient. Clipless pedals are intended as a safety benefit over toe clips and to get rid of dead toes (me), Toe clips have safety benefits over platform pedals. You can't slip of your pedals. I was a very early adaptor of clipless pedals and never ever looked back. I don't claim any efficiency benefits, but I like that my feet are always in the same position, my feet don't slip of the pedals and of course it got rid of my dead toes. That's it. All those efficiency claims come from people that don't understand efficiency hence my first question: what makes flat pedals less efficient? Lou Not quite - it is what you expend and what gets to the road. Power meters show that you get about 2% increase in power using clipless and a round pedal stroke. Looking at physiological issues doesn't mean a thing - heart rate, power in and power out. |
#28
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Clipless pedals no more efficient than flat?
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 11:26:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-10 18:49, bob prohaska wrote: I found this not-entirely-ancient video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE which posits that there's no efficiency gain using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in terms of rider performance. That's a considerable surprise. It certainly _felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps, and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals. Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet, marketing? There is something to it. When applying force also in the pulling-up phase you are using muscles in your legs that you wouldn't be able to use with regular flat pedals. However, my limit aren't the leg muscles, I simply run out of breath on a long steep climb or when "flooring it" on a bike path that has no speed limit. Long story short I used to ride with loop pedals which offer the same "pulling up" advantage as SPD and similar. When I switched to MTB flat pedals I found no difference in my performance when it comes to average speed. As for slipping off the pedals I never found that to be an issue. I have to use them because I ride with sandals most of the year. So I did something that makes purists cringe, I mounted MTB pedals on my road bike. It's the lower cost plastic kind because those allowed me to cut and then round the spikes to about half their length. This reduces the wear on bottoms of shoes and also the gashes in case I crash hard. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#29
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Clipless pedals no more efficient than flat?
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 11:26:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-08-10 18:49, bob prohaska wrote: I found this not-entirely-ancient video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE which posits that there's no efficiency gain using clipless (or traditional toe-clips) in terms of rider performance. That's a considerable surprise. It certainly _felt_ more efficient to use clips/straps, and then Shimano SPDs, compared to flat pedals. Am I a victim of self-deception? Or worse yet, marketing? There is something to it. When applying force also in the pulling-up phase you are using muscles in your legs that you wouldn't be able to use with regular flat pedals. However, my limit aren't the leg muscles, I simply run out of breath on a long steep climb or when "flooring it" on a bike path that has no speed limit. Long story short I used to ride with loop pedals which offer the same "pulling up" advantage as SPD and similar. When I switched to MTB flat pedals I found no difference in my performance when it comes to average speed. As for slipping off the pedals I never found that to be an issue. I have to use them because I ride with sandals most of the year. So I did something that makes purists cringe, I mounted MTB pedals on my road bike. It's the lower cost plastic kind because those allowed me to cut and then round the spikes to about half their length. This reduces the wear on bottoms of shoes and also the gashes in case I crash hard. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Yes, but it all comes from your lungs and circulatory system which is the limiting factor. A circular pedals stroke allows some of your muscles to rest while others are working. This is only a SMALL but important effect for professional racers. |
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Clipless pedals no more efficient than flat?
On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 6:45:40 PM UTC-7, Steve Weeks wrote:
On Monday, August 10, 2020 at 9:37:43 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote: For my own use I like clips as they tend to keep my feet on the pedals :-) One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that clipless pedals allow the rider to unclip one leg to momentarily rest, say, a sore Achilles tendon. The remaining leg can keep the bike going with both up and down strokes. Not for long, in my experience, but it can be useful. Steve, In my experience while being able to very poorly pedal with one leg is a useful trait you are hardly resting. I always end up having to stop on some cliff-side to allow my heart rate to come down to somewhat normal. Getting going again inevitably ends up with me missing the clips. Being able to bring the pedal back around for a second try is good but scary. |
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