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Racing innovation?



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 30th 10, 06:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
DirtRoadie
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Posts: 2,915
Default Racing innovation?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE

DR
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  #2  
Old May 30th 10, 08:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: n/a
Default Racing innovation?


"DirtRoadie" wrote in message
...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE


What a movie, can't think how cancellara could have cheated and gotten away
with it. It's an interesting conspiracy, but too late to prove anything. Wow
a lot of work on creating the video and it's all just a conspiracy.


  #3  
Old May 31st 10, 12:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
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Posts: 6,945
Default Racing innovation?

In article ,
wrote:

"DirtRoadie" wrote in message

...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE


What a movie, can't think how cancellara could have cheated and
gotten away with it. It's an interesting conspiracy, but too late to
prove anything. Wow a lot of work on creating the video and it's all
just a conspiracy.


One of the fundamental aspects of conspiracy theories is that the
believed validity is directly proportional to the effort that goes into
creating the story.

Sasquatch, JFK, alien abduction, the Tea Party, etc. are all good
examples.
  #4  
Old May 31st 10, 07:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
DirtRoadie
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Posts: 2,915
Default Racing innovation?

On May 30, 1:47*pm, wrote:
"DirtRoadie" wrote in message

...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE

What a movie, can't think how cancellara could have cheated and gotten away
with it. It's an interesting conspiracy, but too late to prove anything. Wow
a lot of work on creating the video and it's all just a conspiracy.


Especially suggesting that a simple gear shift (watch the cadence) is
a "suspicious movement" of his hand.
Then again, Cancellara did make it look as if he had a motor.

The device seems interesting, but it certainly does not seem as if a
bottom bracket drive could be very effective in light of the gear
reduction that would seemingly be needed for a small electric motor
assembly (i.e. fits in down tube) to be matched to pedaling cadence.

DR
  #5  
Old May 31st 10, 06:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
thirty-six
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,049
Default Racing innovation?

On 31 May, 07:03, DirtRoadie wrote:
On May 30, 1:47*pm, wrote:

"DirtRoadie" wrote in message


....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE


What a movie, can't think how cancellara could have cheated and gotten away
with it. It's an interesting conspiracy, but too late to prove anything.. Wow
a lot of work on creating the video and it's all just a conspiracy.


Especially suggesting that a simple gear shift (watch the cadence) is
a "suspicious movement" of his hand.
Then again, Cancellara did make it look as if he had a motor.

The device seems interesting, but it certainly does not seem as if *a
bottom bracket drive could be very effective in light of the gear
reduction that would seemingly be needed for a small electric motor
assembly (i.e. fits in down tube) to be matched to pedaling cadence.

DR


If you look at the first clip his speed increases from four secound
between posts to three seconds, now look carefully at his front
wheel. It is swaying from side to side due to high pedalling effort
despite steering input to keep the bike straight. There is no stroll
in the park here.

Motors have advanced somewhat in the last twenty years and compact
arrangments are possible. I dont know if these same compact motors
have the efficiency required to utilise small battery packs that would
fit around the frame. It seems highly unlikely that sufficient
strength of the drive to the axle (within a normal size bottom
bracket) be obtained for usable levels of assisted torque. I am open
to be proved wrong on both these items.
  #6  
Old May 31st 10, 08:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
MikeWhy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 362
Default Racing innovation?

thirty-six wrote:
On 31 May, 07:03, DirtRoadie wrote:
On May 30, 1:47 pm, wrote:

"DirtRoadie" wrote in message


...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE


What a movie, can't think how cancellara could have cheated and
gotten away with it. It's an interesting conspiracy, but too late
to prove anything. Wow a lot of work on creating the video and it's
all just a conspiracy.


Especially suggesting that a simple gear shift (watch the cadence) is
a "suspicious movement" of his hand.
Then again, Cancellara did make it look as if he had a motor.

The device seems interesting, but it certainly does not seem as if a
bottom bracket drive could be very effective in light of the gear
reduction that would seemingly be needed for a small electric motor
assembly (i.e. fits in down tube) to be matched to pedaling cadence.

DR


If you look at the first clip his speed increases from four secound
between posts to three seconds, now look carefully at his front
wheel. It is swaying from side to side due to high pedalling effort
despite steering input to keep the bike straight. There is no stroll
in the park here.

Motors have advanced somewhat in the last twenty years and compact
arrangments are possible. I dont know if these same compact motors
have the efficiency required to utilise small battery packs that would
fit around the frame. It seems highly unlikely that sufficient
strength of the drive to the axle (within a normal size bottom
bracket) be obtained for usable levels of assisted torque. I am open
to be proved wrong on both these items.


If he's in the running at all, 100 extra watts for 15 minutes will make
plenty of difference, is not technically difficult to accomplish, and is not
overly burdensome to carry the entire race distance. Lithium polymer cells
sustaining 4C discharge rate and hobby model airplane or car motors are
cheap and ubiquitous. 12V 2400 mAh packs are small and light. You can do it
for $200 at hobby shop rates, for less than 1 lb total mass. I'm not saying
he did so; just pointing out the feasibility.

  #7  
Old May 31st 10, 09:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
DirtRoadie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,915
Default Racing innovation?

On May 31, 1:59*pm, "MikeWhy" wrote:
thirty-six wrote:
On 31 May, 07:03, DirtRoadie wrote:
On May 30, 1:47 pm, wrote:


"DirtRoadie" wrote in message


....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE


What a movie, can't think how cancellara could have cheated and
gotten away with it. It's an interesting conspiracy, but too late
to prove anything. Wow a lot of work on creating the video and it's
all just a conspiracy.


Especially suggesting that a simple gear shift (watch the cadence) is
a "suspicious movement" of his hand.
Then again, Cancellara did make it look as if he had a motor.


The device seems interesting, but it certainly does not seem as if a
bottom bracket drive could be very effective in light of the gear
reduction that would seemingly be needed for a small electric motor
assembly (i.e. fits in down tube) to be matched to pedaling cadence.


DR


If you look at the first clip his speed increases from four secound
between posts to three seconds, now look carefully at his front
wheel. *It is swaying from side to side due to high pedalling effort
despite steering input to keep the bike straight. *There is no stroll
in the park here.


Motors have advanced somewhat in the last twenty years and compact
arrangments are possible. *I dont know if these same compact motors
have the efficiency required to utilise small battery packs that would
fit around the frame. *It seems highly unlikely that sufficient
strength of the drive to the axle (within a normal size bottom
bracket) be obtained for usable levels of assisted torque. *I am open
to be proved wrong on both these items.


If he's in the running at all, 100 extra watts for 15 minutes will make
plenty of difference, is not technically difficult to accomplish, and is not
overly burdensome to carry the entire race distance. Lithium polymer cells
sustaining 4C discharge rate and hobby model airplane or car motors are
cheap and ubiquitous. 12V 2400 mAh packs are small and light. You can do it
for $200 at hobby shop rates, for less than 1 lb total mass. I'm not saying
he did so; just pointing out the feasibility.


http://www.gruberassist.com/
"At an optimal pedal frequency of approx. 60 pedal revolutions per
minute, the bicycle drive provides the rear wheel with up to 100
watts."
I agree that it sure seems as if those little gears would have to
handle a lot of torque - the same kind of forces on the BB spindle as
those generated by a rider putting out 100 watts @ 60 rpm.

But wait, there's mo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGYqKBUEelw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmPUze3WBTw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWtnfgDbBd4&


DR


  #8  
Old May 31st 10, 09:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
thirty-six
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,049
Default Racing innovation?

On 31 May, 20:59, "MikeWhy" wrote:
thirty-six wrote:
On 31 May, 07:03, DirtRoadie wrote:
On May 30, 1:47 pm, wrote:


"DirtRoadie" wrote in message


....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE


What a movie, can't think how cancellara could have cheated and
gotten away with it. It's an interesting conspiracy, but too late
to prove anything. Wow a lot of work on creating the video and it's
all just a conspiracy.


Especially suggesting that a simple gear shift (watch the cadence) is
a "suspicious movement" of his hand.
Then again, Cancellara did make it look as if he had a motor.


The device seems interesting, but it certainly does not seem as if a
bottom bracket drive could be very effective in light of the gear
reduction that would seemingly be needed for a small electric motor
assembly (i.e. fits in down tube) to be matched to pedaling cadence.


DR


If you look at the first clip his speed increases from four secound
between posts to three seconds, now look carefully at his front
wheel. *It is swaying from side to side due to high pedalling effort
despite steering input to keep the bike straight. *There is no stroll
in the park here.


Motors have advanced somewhat in the last twenty years and compact
arrangments are possible. *I dont know if these same compact motors
have the efficiency required to utilise small battery packs that would
fit around the frame. *It seems highly unlikely that sufficient
strength of the drive to the axle (within a normal size bottom
bracket) be obtained for usable levels of assisted torque. *I am open
to be proved wrong on both these items.


If he's in the running at all, 100 extra watts for 15 minutes will make
plenty of difference, is not technically difficult to accomplish, and is not
overly burdensome to carry the entire race distance. Lithium polymer cells
sustaining 4C discharge rate


What is this 4C?

and hobby model airplane or car motors are
cheap and ubiquitous.


For 20W perhaps, not 100W surely? What is their efficiency at high
loadings, and the overall eficiency?

12V 2400 mAh packs are small and light.


And can safely and reliably source 8-12A for 5 to 15minutes?

You can do it
for $200 at hobby shop rates, for less than 1 lb total mass. I'm not saying
he did so; just pointing out the feasibility.


  #9  
Old May 31st 10, 10:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
MikeWhy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 362
Default Racing innovation?

thirty-six wrote:
On 31 May, 20:59, "MikeWhy" wrote:
thirty-six wrote:
On 31 May, 07:03, DirtRoadie wrote:
On May 30, 1:47 pm, wrote:


"DirtRoadie" wrote in message


...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE


What a movie, can't think how cancellara could have cheated and
gotten away with it. It's an interesting conspiracy, but too late
to prove anything. Wow a lot of work on creating the video and
it's all just a conspiracy.


Especially suggesting that a simple gear shift (watch the cadence)
is a "suspicious movement" of his hand.
Then again, Cancellara did make it look as if he had a motor.


The device seems interesting, but it certainly does not seem as if
a bottom bracket drive could be very effective in light of the gear
reduction that would seemingly be needed for a small electric motor
assembly (i.e. fits in down tube) to be matched to pedaling
cadence.


DR


If you look at the first clip his speed increases from four secound
between posts to three seconds, now look carefully at his front
wheel. It is swaying from side to side due to high pedalling effort
despite steering input to keep the bike straight. There is no stroll
in the park here.


Motors have advanced somewhat in the last twenty years and compact
arrangments are possible. I dont know if these same compact motors
have the efficiency required to utilise small battery packs that
would fit around the frame. It seems highly unlikely that sufficient
strength of the drive to the axle (within a normal size bottom
bracket) be obtained for usable levels of assisted torque. I am open
to be proved wrong on both these items.


If he's in the running at all, 100 extra watts for 15 minutes will
make plenty of difference, is not technically difficult to
accomplish, and is not overly burdensome to carry the entire race
distance. Lithium polymer cells sustaining 4C discharge rate


What is this 4C?

and hobby model airplane or car motors are
cheap and ubiquitous.


For 20W perhaps, not 100W surely? What is their efficiency at high
loadings, and the overall eficiency?

12V 2400 mAh packs are small and light.


And can safely and reliably source 8-12A for 5 to 15minutes?


1C is the amp hr rating; 4C is 4 times the amp hr rating. Discharge and
charge rates are specified by the cell manufacturer this way. 4C discharge
rate on 2400 mAh cells is 9.6 A.

Brushless motors can have efficiency above 90%. It can be possible to design
a motor and winding for best efficiency at the the target power draw and
rpm, say 9 A at 90 rpm. 80% eta and higher is probable.

100 W and higher is no problem at all. I used to rewind CDROM drive motors
for 150 W, to power foam airplanes. The torque requirement at 90 rpm will be
quite a bit different. There's a bit of room in the BB for a large bevel
gear and some reduction. Fewer windings with larger gauge wire should do it.

A metal frame is a reasonably good heatsink, for both the motor and
batteries.

It's feasible to squeeze 100W for 15 minutes from a lightweight and small
enough package.

  #10  
Old May 31st 10, 11:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jay Beattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,322
Default Racing innovation?

On May 31, 2:48*pm, "MikeWhy" wrote:
thirty-six wrote:
On 31 May, 20:59, "MikeWhy" wrote:
thirty-six wrote:
On 31 May, 07:03, DirtRoadie wrote:
On May 30, 1:47 pm, wrote:


"DirtRoadie" wrote in message


...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE


What a movie, can't think how cancellara could have cheated and
gotten away with it. It's an interesting conspiracy, but too late
to prove anything. Wow a lot of work on creating the video and
it's all just a conspiracy.


Especially suggesting that a simple gear shift (watch the cadence)
is a "suspicious movement" of his hand.
Then again, Cancellara did make it look as if he had a motor.


The device seems interesting, but it certainly does not seem as if
a bottom bracket drive could be very effective in light of the gear
reduction that would seemingly be needed for a small electric motor
assembly (i.e. fits in down tube) to be matched to pedaling
cadence.


DR


If you look at the first clip his speed increases from four secound
between posts to three seconds, now look carefully at his front
wheel. It is swaying from side to side due to high pedalling effort
despite steering input to keep the bike straight. There is no stroll
in the park here.


Motors have advanced somewhat in the last twenty years and compact
arrangments are possible. I dont know if these same compact motors
have the efficiency required to utilise small battery packs that
would fit around the frame. It seems highly unlikely that sufficient
strength of the drive to the axle (within a normal size bottom
bracket) be obtained for usable levels of assisted torque. I am open
to be proved wrong on both these items.


If he's in the running at all, 100 extra watts for 15 minutes will
make plenty of difference, is not technically difficult to
accomplish, and is not overly burdensome to carry the entire race
distance. Lithium polymer cells sustaining 4C discharge rate


What is this 4C?


and hobby model airplane or car motors are
cheap and ubiquitous.


For 20W perhaps, not 100W surely? *What is their efficiency at high
loadings, and the overall eficiency?


12V 2400 mAh packs are small and light.


And can safely and reliably source 8-12A for 5 to 15minutes?


1C is the amp hr rating; 4C is 4 times the amp hr rating. Discharge and
charge rates are specified by the cell manufacturer this way. 4C discharge
rate on 2400 mAh cells is 9.6 A.

Brushless motors can have efficiency above 90%. It can be possible to design
a motor and winding for best efficiency at the the target power draw and
rpm, say 9 A at 90 rpm. 80% eta and higher is probable.

100 W and higher is no problem at all. I used to rewind CDROM drive motors
for 150 W, to power foam airplanes. The torque requirement at 90 rpm will be
quite a bit different. There's a bit of room in the BB for a large bevel
gear and some reduction. Fewer windings with larger gauge wire should do it.

A metal frame is a reasonably good heatsink, for both the motor and
batteries.

It's feasible to squeeze 100W for 15 minutes from a lightweight and small
enough package.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


If the motor is not on, does it drag? -- Jay Beattie.
 




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