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Better Braking?



 
 
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  #261  
Old February 15th 20, 10:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ted Heise
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 136
Default Better Braking?

On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:08:04 -0800 (PST),
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, 15 February 2020 12:32:22 UTC-5, Ted Heise wrote:
On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:50:32 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 2/14/2020 10:18 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:


Well, someone could always very precisely measure some
aspect another guy cares nothing about and call it
'data'.

I don't think it's better to give no measurements, nothing
but a vague "mine is better" opinion, and say "data
doesn't matter."


Regarding the topic, braking, ditto. No one disputes that
big fluid discs have better peak braking power and heat
dissipation for sustained braking power. One might chart
those factors impressively in comparison to rim brakes. For
the bike I ride this time of year, a simple sidepull front
with fixed gear is perfectly adequate and I've never wanted
for more braking power[1] on that bike given the way I use
it. I'm not Jay, nor Joerg, who have different needs and
taste.

[1] what that bike really needs is a heater!


My fixed gear is set up the same way; that is, just a simple
front rim brake.

Just coming out of single digit temps here; this heater idea
has some appeal. Perhaps an e-bike battery could be
re-purposed?


A can of Sterno or similar gel-alcohol fuel mounted on a gimble
mount, and shielded from the wind will work. I did it once for
fun. I had an inverted funnel over the windshield of the Sterno
can and a flexible metal hose attached to the funnel and then
insulated where I had it go under my jacket.


Interesting. But where I really need the heat is my fingers and
toes!

--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA
Ads
  #262  
Old February 15th 20, 11:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 840
Default Better Braking?

On 2/15/2020 1:23 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:08:04 -0800 (PST),
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, 15 February 2020 12:32:22 UTC-5, Ted Heise wrote:
On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 08:50:32 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 2/14/2020 10:18 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Well, someone could always very precisely measure some
aspect another guy cares nothing about and call it
'data'.

I don't think it's better to give no measurements, nothing
but a vague "mine is better" opinion, and say "data
doesn't matter."

Regarding the topic, braking, ditto. No one disputes that
big fluid discs have better peak braking power and heat
dissipation for sustained braking power. One might chart
those factors impressively in comparison to rim brakes. For
the bike I ride this time of year, a simple sidepull front
with fixed gear is perfectly adequate and I've never wanted
for more braking power[1] on that bike given the way I use
it. I'm not Jay, nor Joerg, who have different needs and
taste.

[1] what that bike really needs is a heater!

My fixed gear is set up the same way; that is, just a simple
front rim brake.

Just coming out of single digit temps here; this heater idea
has some appeal. Perhaps an e-bike battery could be
re-purposed?


A can of Sterno or similar gel-alcohol fuel mounted on a gimble
mount, and shielded from the wind will work. I did it once for
fun. I had an inverted funnel over the windshield of the Sterno
can and a flexible metal hose attached to the funnel and then
insulated where I had it go under my jacket.


Interesting. But where I really need the heat is my fingers and
toes!


Stick-on "chemical" toe warmers really help. By "chemical" I mean
powered by rusting/oxidation of iron filings (really). They make a
massive difference, especially if Reynaud's syndrome (or more likely, a
very mild version of Reynaud's) is suspected.

Lots of brands to choose from.

Mark J.
  #263  
Old February 15th 20, 11:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,511
Default Better Braking?

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 2:49:36 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 8:00:21 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/15/2020 3:16 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 5:30:59 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 7:40:02 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 11:23:24 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 14 February 2020 12:00:11 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/13/2020 5:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 2:36:58 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:

Own Data? You mean like your assertions that a cheap Chinese
flashlight is a perfect bicycle head light? ...

I have taken Steven's word at the effectiveness of "cheap Chinese flashlights as bicycle lights" and he was completely correct. Sorry if you seem to think that you know anything about anything but you have shown yourself to be a great deal heavier on opinion than knowledge of anything.

You say Mr. Scharf was completely correct when he touted cheap Chinese
flashlights as bike headlights. That was when he said dyno powered
headlights were terrible and foolish.

Problem is, Mr. Scharf is now using dyno powered headlights on his
bikes, and no longer seems to say cheap Chinese flashlights are perfect.

My first question is, was he completely correct back then? Or is he
completely correct now?

My second question regards specific details. My dyno powered LED
headlights illuminate the entire width of the lane, and simultaneously
illuminate stop signs up to a quarter mile away from me, all without
blinding oncoming riders.

The Chinese flashlight I tried could not do that, no matter how I
adjusted the tilt and the focus. It was a truly crappy headlight. What,
specifically, does yours do? What's its brand and model?



--
- Frank Krygowski

Some people use flashlights that have a narrow beam but good range.. Those lights might be okay as a be seen light but they don't light up much of the road. Others use flashlights with adjustable focus that spread the beams to light of more of the road. the trouble is that when they do that they lose the range they need if riding in totally dark conditions with no city lights.

I really like my CygoLite Rover II light as it does light up the two lanes of the country roads around here and it does so no matter what speed I'm riding at. Also, I can move the battery and light unit from bike to bike easily. I do wish it had a bit more range. For that reason I was considering getting the Centauri or Trident. Dynamo lights simply don't meet my needs.

Cheers

I think that there was a GCN video of a rim driven dynamo light and it was pretty funny because it was just like I remembered it as a kid. As you pushed the pedal down you would get a light and as you were changing over to the opposite the bike would stop from the massive resistance of a 30 watt dynamo. If Frank really uses those things he must ride a bike with a triple and a 26 to 42 gear ratio.

Tom, you have a problem confusing fantasy with reality.

Let me describe a spontaneous, unplanned dynamo test I did once. I've
described it before, but you probably wouldn't remember.

I was on a solo bike tour, heading to Bloomington IN where my kid was
soon to finish college. ("Dad, you've been talking about riding your
bike here. This is your last chance.")

I was on a nice, empty, flat four lane highway heading due west, and
feeling good because I was cranking along nicely at 20 mph despite my
full camping load.

Then I hit a bump in the pavement. After that, I heard some new noise
from my bike, and to my dismay my speed dropped about a mile per hour.

  #264  
Old February 16th 20, 12:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Better Braking?

On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 00:16:34 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 5:30:59 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 7:40:02 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 11:23:24 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 14 February 2020 12:00:11 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/13/2020 5:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 2:36:58 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:

Own Data? You mean like your assertions that a cheap Chinese
flashlight is a perfect bicycle head light? ...

I have taken Steven's word at the effectiveness of "cheap Chinese flashlights as bicycle lights" and he was completely correct. Sorry if you seem to think that you know anything about anything but you have shown yourself to be a great deal heavier on opinion than knowledge of anything.

You say Mr. Scharf was completely correct when he touted cheap Chinese
flashlights as bike headlights. That was when he said dyno powered
headlights were terrible and foolish.

Problem is, Mr. Scharf is now using dyno powered headlights on his
bikes, and no longer seems to say cheap Chinese flashlights are perfect.

My first question is, was he completely correct back then? Or is he
completely correct now?

My second question regards specific details. My dyno powered LED
headlights illuminate the entire width of the lane, and simultaneously
illuminate stop signs up to a quarter mile away from me, all without
blinding oncoming riders.

The Chinese flashlight I tried could not do that, no matter how I
adjusted the tilt and the focus. It was a truly crappy headlight. What,
specifically, does yours do? What's its brand and model?



--
- Frank Krygowski

Some people use flashlights that have a narrow beam but good range. Those lights might be okay as a be seen light but they don't light up much of the road. Others use flashlights with adjustable focus that spread the beams to light of more of the road. the trouble is that when they do that they lose the range they need if riding in totally dark conditions with no city lights.

I really like my CygoLite Rover II light as it does light up the two lanes of the country roads around here and it does so no matter what speed I'm riding at. Also, I can move the battery and light unit from bike to bike easily. I do wish it had a bit more range. For that reason I was considering getting the Centauri or Trident. Dynamo lights simply don't meet my needs.

Cheers

I think that there was a GCN video of a rim driven dynamo light and it was pretty funny because it was just like I remembered it as a kid. As you pushed the pedal down you would get a light and as you were changing over to the opposite the bike would stop from the massive resistance of a 30 watt dynamo. If Frank really uses those things he must ride a bike with a triple and a 26 to 42 gear ratio.


Tom, you have a problem confusing fantasy with reality.

Let me describe a spontaneous, unplanned dynamo test I did once. I've
described it before, but you probably wouldn't remember.

I was on a solo bike tour, heading to Bloomington IN where my kid was
soon to finish college. ("Dad, you've been talking about riding your
bike here. This is your last chance.")

I was on a nice, empty, flat four lane highway heading due west, and
feeling good because I was cranking along nicely at 20 mph despite my
full camping load.

Then I hit a bump in the pavement. After that, I heard some new noise
from my bike, and to my dismay my speed dropped about a mile per hour.

I remember checking for dragging brakes by squeezing the levers and
looking at the brake arms. Nothing. I didn't stop, but I worried
about what damage I had done that was slowing my bike. Then I realized
the bump had caused my generator to click on. I clicked it off and my
speed returned.

So at the power output needed for 20 mph, putting on the generator
slowed me to maybe 19 mph. This was with a bottom bracket generator,
but I haven't seen any real difference with a bottle dyno as I set
them up. And note, this matches Chris Juden's numbers that John
alluded to. Let me know if you need a link.

As always: Sorry for introducing real numbers into a discussion.

- Frank Krygowski


Hmm, you saying that your speed dropped from 20-19 mph in uncontrolled conditions are real numbers?

Lou


But isn't it real? After all the effect of the generator, while it can
be measured on some sort of torque meter, will be different for
different people. Just as the gearing necessary to climb a hill is
different for different people.

You can argue that "this generator requires X watts of power to
operate", but in real life it is how much it slows ME down that is
important to the rider. Isn't it?
--
cheers,

John B.

  #265  
Old February 16th 20, 12:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default Better Braking?

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 11:30:14 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 2:49:36 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 8:00:21 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/15/2020 3:16 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 5:30:59 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 7:40:02 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 11:23:24 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 14 February 2020 12:00:11 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/13/2020 5:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 2:36:58 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:

Own Data? You mean like your assertions that a cheap Chinese
flashlight is a perfect bicycle head light? ...

I have taken Steven's word at the effectiveness of "cheap Chinese flashlights as bicycle lights" and he was completely correct. Sorry if you seem to think that you know anything about anything but you have shown yourself to be a great deal heavier on opinion than knowledge of anything.

You say Mr. Scharf was completely correct when he touted cheap Chinese
flashlights as bike headlights. That was when he said dyno powered
headlights were terrible and foolish.

Problem is, Mr. Scharf is now using dyno powered headlights on his
bikes, and no longer seems to say cheap Chinese flashlights are perfect.

My first question is, was he completely correct back then? Or is he
completely correct now?

My second question regards specific details. My dyno powered LED
headlights illuminate the entire width of the lane, and simultaneously
illuminate stop signs up to a quarter mile away from me, all without
blinding oncoming riders.

The Chinese flashlight I tried could not do that, no matter how I
adjusted the tilt and the focus. It was a truly crappy headlight. What,
specifically, does yours do? What's its brand and model?



--
- Frank Krygowski

Some people use flashlights that have a narrow beam but good range. Those lights might be okay as a be seen light but they don't light up much of the road. Others use flashlights with adjustable focus that spread the beams to light of more of the road. the trouble is that when they do that they lose the range they need if riding in totally dark conditions with no city lights.

I really like my CygoLite Rover II light as it does light up the two lanes of the country roads around here and it does so no matter what speed I'm riding at. Also, I can move the battery and light unit from bike to bike easily. I do wish it had a bit more range. For that reason I was considering getting the Centauri or Trident. Dynamo lights simply don't meet my needs.

Cheers

I think that there was a GCN video of a rim driven dynamo light and it was pretty funny because it was just like I remembered it as a kid. As you pushed the pedal down you would get a light and as you were changing over to the opposite the bike would stop from the massive resistance of a 30 watt dynamo. If Frank really uses those things he must ride a bike with a triple and a 26 to 42 gear ratio.

Tom, you have a problem confusing fantasy with reality.

Let me describe a spontaneous, unplanned dynamo test I did once. I've
described it before, but you probably wouldn't remember.

I was on a solo bike tour, heading to Bloomington IN where my kid was
soon to finish college. ("Dad, you've been talking about riding your
bike here. This is your last chance.")

I was on a nice, empty, flat four lane highway heading due west, and
feeling good because I was cranking along nicely at 20 mph despite my
full camping load.

Then I hit a bump in the pavement. After that, I heard some new noise
from my bike, and to my dismay my speed dropped about a mile per hour.

I remember checking for dragging brakes by squeezing the levers and
looking at the brake arms. Nothing. I didn't stop, but I worried
about what damage I had done that was slowing my bike. Then I realized
the bump had caused my generator to click on. I clicked it off and my
speed returned.

So at the power output needed for 20 mph, putting on the generator
slowed me to maybe 19 mph. This was with a bottom bracket generator,
but I haven't seen any real difference with a bottle dyno as I set
them up. And note, this matches Chris Juden's numbers that John
alluded to. Let me know if you need a link.

As always: Sorry for introducing real numbers into a discussion.

- Frank Krygowski

Hmm, you saying that your speed dropped from 20-19 mph in uncontrolled conditions are real numbers?

Those were the numbers I experienced. A dead flat four lane road with no
traffic is a fairly simple test situation. And again, it was at least
roughly corroborated by tests I've done and others have done.

Do you have different numbers?


--
- Frank Krygowski


It is crappy research Frank, you should know that. Maybe a tad better than saying 'these brakes are better' after using them for a longer time. Your real speed could went from 19.6 mph to 18.6 mph or from 19.6 mph to 19.4 mph. Who knows. When I was in the market for a dyno hub I wanted the one with the highest efficiency and my choice was based on measurements in a laboratory with real instruments. It is not difficult in these conditions to measure accurately. After my choice I'm not the least interested in numbers anymore and just use the damn thing and not trying to convince/impress others with numbers that don't say anything. When I switch the light on and of a don't notice anything in feel and speed but I have to reach down to switch it on or off which changes the situation so this doesn't anything either, but I know that I go from 6-7 Watt to 0.5-1 Watt turning in on and off.
BTW my good friend who is a skilled and enthusiast brick layer agrees with me.


You're losing track of the conversation, Lou. My post was to counter
Tom Kunich's claim that the dynamo slowed the bike almost to a stop.
His is an exaggerated variation on a frequent complaint - that dynos
make no sense because they slow a rider down.

I related what some researchers call "a natural experiment" - that is,
a change made inadvertently, or for reasons not connected to the
present question. Natural experiments can still yield reasonably good
data. Yes, in this case it wasn't as precise as laboratory data -
but then, if I gave laboratory data, Tom or other more obnoxious
people would say "That can't be trusted."

Mine was a real world experience. Conditions were constant except for
the sudden engagement of the dyno. The main weakness is that I know
the before and after speeds only approximately. But I know that there
was very little reduction in speed, which was all I cared about.

That is what you confirmed from your own experience. Yet you argue
with me! How odd.

- Frank Krygowski


I was replying to your pedantic remark 'As always: Sorry for introducing real numbers into a discussion. '. Those are not real numbers and certainly can not be checked. We have to believe you. In that case we can also believe Tom saying that thy dyno slowed him down considerably. BTW I think going from 20 to 19 mph is quite a bit for some. Bottom line is a dyno(hub) cost you 5-10 W, a battery powered light not.

Lou
  #266  
Old February 16th 20, 12:11 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default Better Braking?

On Sunday, February 16, 2020 at 12:01:05 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 00:16:34 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 5:30:59 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 7:40:02 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 11:23:24 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 14 February 2020 12:00:11 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/13/2020 5:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 2:36:58 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:

Own Data? You mean like your assertions that a cheap Chinese
flashlight is a perfect bicycle head light? ...

I have taken Steven's word at the effectiveness of "cheap Chinese flashlights as bicycle lights" and he was completely correct. Sorry if you seem to think that you know anything about anything but you have shown yourself to be a great deal heavier on opinion than knowledge of anything.

You say Mr. Scharf was completely correct when he touted cheap Chinese
flashlights as bike headlights. That was when he said dyno powered
headlights were terrible and foolish.

Problem is, Mr. Scharf is now using dyno powered headlights on his
bikes, and no longer seems to say cheap Chinese flashlights are perfect.

My first question is, was he completely correct back then? Or is he
completely correct now?

My second question regards specific details. My dyno powered LED
headlights illuminate the entire width of the lane, and simultaneously
illuminate stop signs up to a quarter mile away from me, all without
blinding oncoming riders.

The Chinese flashlight I tried could not do that, no matter how I
adjusted the tilt and the focus. It was a truly crappy headlight.. What,
specifically, does yours do? What's its brand and model?



--
- Frank Krygowski

Some people use flashlights that have a narrow beam but good range.. Those lights might be okay as a be seen light but they don't light up much of the road. Others use flashlights with adjustable focus that spread the beams to light of more of the road. the trouble is that when they do that they lose the range they need if riding in totally dark conditions with no city lights.

I really like my CygoLite Rover II light as it does light up the two lanes of the country roads around here and it does so no matter what speed I'm riding at. Also, I can move the battery and light unit from bike to bike easily. I do wish it had a bit more range. For that reason I was considering getting the Centauri or Trident. Dynamo lights simply don't meet my needs.

Cheers

I think that there was a GCN video of a rim driven dynamo light and it was pretty funny because it was just like I remembered it as a kid. As you pushed the pedal down you would get a light and as you were changing over to the opposite the bike would stop from the massive resistance of a 30 watt dynamo. If Frank really uses those things he must ride a bike with a triple and a 26 to 42 gear ratio.

Tom, you have a problem confusing fantasy with reality.

Let me describe a spontaneous, unplanned dynamo test I did once. I've
described it before, but you probably wouldn't remember.

I was on a solo bike tour, heading to Bloomington IN where my kid was
soon to finish college. ("Dad, you've been talking about riding your
bike here. This is your last chance.")

I was on a nice, empty, flat four lane highway heading due west, and
feeling good because I was cranking along nicely at 20 mph despite my
full camping load.

Then I hit a bump in the pavement. After that, I heard some new noise
from my bike, and to my dismay my speed dropped about a mile per hour.

I remember checking for dragging brakes by squeezing the levers and
looking at the brake arms. Nothing. I didn't stop, but I worried
about what damage I had done that was slowing my bike. Then I realized
the bump had caused my generator to click on. I clicked it off and my
speed returned.

So at the power output needed for 20 mph, putting on the generator
slowed me to maybe 19 mph. This was with a bottom bracket generator,
but I haven't seen any real difference with a bottle dyno as I set
them up. And note, this matches Chris Juden's numbers that John
alluded to. Let me know if you need a link.

As always: Sorry for introducing real numbers into a discussion.

- Frank Krygowski


Hmm, you saying that your speed dropped from 20-19 mph in uncontrolled conditions are real numbers?

Lou


But isn't it real? After all the effect of the generator, while it can
be measured on some sort of torque meter, will be different for
different people. Just as the gearing necessary to climb a hill is
different for different people.

You can argue that "this generator requires X watts of power to
operate", but in real life it is how much it slows ME down that is
important to the rider. Isn't it?
--
cheers,

John B.


Perception plays a big role here, so we need actual numbers. But even then it doesn't matter after you made the choice for a dyno(hub). I can't stand having to charge my batteries before every ride so I choose a dynohub, minimize the drawbacks and after that live with them. I fully agree with Frank about his reason to choose for a dyno powered light system, but I also understand that other people choose for battery powered lights.

Lou

Lou
  #267  
Old February 16th 20, 12:27 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Better Braking?

On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 15:11:44 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, February 16, 2020 at 12:01:05 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 00:16:34 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 5:30:59 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 7:40:02 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 11:23:24 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 14 February 2020 12:00:11 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/13/2020 5:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 2:36:58 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:

Own Data? You mean like your assertions that a cheap Chinese
flashlight is a perfect bicycle head light? ...

I have taken Steven's word at the effectiveness of "cheap Chinese flashlights as bicycle lights" and he was completely correct. Sorry if you seem to think that you know anything about anything but you have shown yourself to be a great deal heavier on opinion than knowledge of anything.

You say Mr. Scharf was completely correct when he touted cheap Chinese
flashlights as bike headlights. That was when he said dyno powered
headlights were terrible and foolish.

Problem is, Mr. Scharf is now using dyno powered headlights on his
bikes, and no longer seems to say cheap Chinese flashlights are perfect.

My first question is, was he completely correct back then? Or is he
completely correct now?

My second question regards specific details. My dyno powered LED
headlights illuminate the entire width of the lane, and simultaneously
illuminate stop signs up to a quarter mile away from me, all without
blinding oncoming riders.

The Chinese flashlight I tried could not do that, no matter how I
adjusted the tilt and the focus. It was a truly crappy headlight. What,
specifically, does yours do? What's its brand and model?



--
- Frank Krygowski

Some people use flashlights that have a narrow beam but good range. Those lights might be okay as a be seen light but they don't light up much of the road. Others use flashlights with adjustable focus that spread the beams to light of more of the road. the trouble is that when they do that they lose the range they need if riding in totally dark conditions with no city lights.

I really like my CygoLite Rover II light as it does light up the two lanes of the country roads around here and it does so no matter what speed I'm riding at. Also, I can move the battery and light unit from bike to bike easily. I do wish it had a bit more range. For that reason I was considering getting the Centauri or Trident. Dynamo lights simply don't meet my needs.

Cheers

I think that there was a GCN video of a rim driven dynamo light and it was pretty funny because it was just like I remembered it as a kid. As you pushed the pedal down you would get a light and as you were changing over to the opposite the bike would stop from the massive resistance of a 30 watt dynamo. If Frank really uses those things he must ride a bike with a triple and a 26 to 42 gear ratio.

Tom, you have a problem confusing fantasy with reality.

Let me describe a spontaneous, unplanned dynamo test I did once. I've
described it before, but you probably wouldn't remember.

I was on a solo bike tour, heading to Bloomington IN where my kid was
soon to finish college. ("Dad, you've been talking about riding your
bike here. This is your last chance.")

I was on a nice, empty, flat four lane highway heading due west, and
feeling good because I was cranking along nicely at 20 mph despite my
full camping load.

Then I hit a bump in the pavement. After that, I heard some new noise
from my bike, and to my dismay my speed dropped about a mile per hour.

I remember checking for dragging brakes by squeezing the levers and
looking at the brake arms. Nothing. I didn't stop, but I worried
about what damage I had done that was slowing my bike. Then I realized
the bump had caused my generator to click on. I clicked it off and my
speed returned.

So at the power output needed for 20 mph, putting on the generator
slowed me to maybe 19 mph. This was with a bottom bracket generator,
but I haven't seen any real difference with a bottle dyno as I set
them up. And note, this matches Chris Juden's numbers that John
alluded to. Let me know if you need a link.

As always: Sorry for introducing real numbers into a discussion.

- Frank Krygowski

Hmm, you saying that your speed dropped from 20-19 mph in uncontrolled conditions are real numbers?

Lou


But isn't it real? After all the effect of the generator, while it can
be measured on some sort of torque meter, will be different for
different people. Just as the gearing necessary to climb a hill is
different for different people.

You can argue that "this generator requires X watts of power to
operate", but in real life it is how much it slows ME down that is
important to the rider. Isn't it?
--
cheers,

John B.


Perception plays a big role here, so we need actual numbers. But even then it doesn't matter after you made the choice for a dyno(hub). I can't stand having to charge my batteries before every ride so I choose a dynohub, minimize the drawbacks and after that live with them. I fully agree with Frank about his reason to choose for a dyno powered light system, but I also understand that other people choose for battery powered lights.

Lou


Yes, I understand what you are saying but is the fact that this
generator requires (oh say) 3 watts of power to power your lamp a
meaningless number?

After all, you had to shift down two gears when you turned on the
lamp, just to keep moving, while the other guy didn't even notice
that his light was on.

--
cheers,

John B.

  #268  
Old February 16th 20, 12:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Better Braking?

On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 15:03:20 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 11:30:14 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 2:49:36 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 8:00:21 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/15/2020 3:16 AM,
wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 5:30:59 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 7:40:02 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 11:23:24 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 14 February 2020 12:00:11 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/13/2020 5:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 2:36:58 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:

Own Data? You mean like your assertions that a cheap Chinese
flashlight is a perfect bicycle head light? ...

I have taken Steven's word at the effectiveness of "cheap Chinese flashlights as bicycle lights" and he was completely correct. Sorry if you seem to think that you know anything about anything but you have shown yourself to be a great deal heavier on opinion than knowledge of anything.

You say Mr. Scharf was completely correct when he touted cheap Chinese
flashlights as bike headlights. That was when he said dyno powered
headlights were terrible and foolish.

Problem is, Mr. Scharf is now using dyno powered headlights on his
bikes, and no longer seems to say cheap Chinese flashlights are perfect.

My first question is, was he completely correct back then? Or is he
completely correct now?

My second question regards specific details. My dyno powered LED
headlights illuminate the entire width of the lane, and simultaneously
illuminate stop signs up to a quarter mile away from me, all without
blinding oncoming riders.

The Chinese flashlight I tried could not do that, no matter how I
adjusted the tilt and the focus. It was a truly crappy headlight. What,
specifically, does yours do? What's its brand and model?



--
- Frank Krygowski

Some people use flashlights that have a narrow beam but good range. Those lights might be okay as a be seen light but they don't light up much of the road. Others use flashlights with adjustable focus that spread the beams to light of more of the road. the trouble is that when they do that they lose the range they need if riding in totally dark conditions with no city lights.

I really like my CygoLite Rover II light as it does light up the two lanes of the country roads around here and it does so no matter what speed I'm riding at. Also, I can move the battery and light unit from bike to bike easily. I do wish it had a bit more range. For that reason I was considering getting the Centauri or Trident. Dynamo lights simply don't meet my needs.

Cheers

I think that there was a GCN video of a rim driven dynamo light and it was pretty funny because it was just like I remembered it as a kid. As you pushed the pedal down you would get a light and as you were changing over to the opposite the bike would stop from the massive resistance of a 30 watt dynamo. If Frank really uses those things he must ride a bike with a triple and a 26 to 42 gear ratio.

Tom, you have a problem confusing fantasy with reality.

Let me describe a spontaneous, unplanned dynamo test I did once. I've
described it before, but you probably wouldn't remember.

I was on a solo bike tour, heading to Bloomington IN where my kid was
soon to finish college. ("Dad, you've been talking about riding your
bike here. This is your last chance.")

I was on a nice, empty, flat four lane highway heading due west, and
feeling good because I was cranking along nicely at 20 mph despite my
full camping load.

Then I hit a bump in the pavement. After that, I heard some new noise
from my bike, and to my dismay my speed dropped about a mile per hour.

I remember checking for dragging brakes by squeezing the levers and
looking at the brake arms. Nothing. I didn't stop, but I worried
about what damage I had done that was slowing my bike. Then I realized
the bump had caused my generator to click on. I clicked it off and my
speed returned.

So at the power output needed for 20 mph, putting on the generator
slowed me to maybe 19 mph. This was with a bottom bracket generator,
but I haven't seen any real difference with a bottle dyno as I set
them up. And note, this matches Chris Juden's numbers that John
alluded to. Let me know if you need a link.

As always: Sorry for introducing real numbers into a discussion.

- Frank Krygowski

Hmm, you saying that your speed dropped from 20-19 mph in uncontrolled conditions are real numbers?

Those were the numbers I experienced. A dead flat four lane road with no
traffic is a fairly simple test situation. And again, it was at least
roughly corroborated by tests I've done and others have done.

Do you have different numbers?


--
- Frank Krygowski

It is crappy research Frank, you should know that. Maybe a tad better than saying 'these brakes are better' after using them for a longer time. Your real speed could went from 19.6 mph to 18.6 mph or from 19.6 mph to 19.4 mph. Who knows. When I was in the market for a dyno hub I wanted the one with the highest efficiency and my choice was based on measurements in a laboratory with real instruments. It is not difficult in these conditions to measure accurately. After my choice I'm not the least interested in numbers anymore and just use the damn thing and not trying to convince/impress others with numbers that don't say anything. When I switch the light on and of a don't notice anything in feel and speed but I have to reach down to switch it on or off which changes the situation so this doesn't anything either, but I know that I go from 6-7 Watt to 0.5-1 Watt turning in on and off.
BTW my good friend who is a skilled and enthusiast brick layer agrees with me.


You're losing track of the conversation, Lou. My post was to counter
Tom Kunich's claim that the dynamo slowed the bike almost to a stop.
His is an exaggerated variation on a frequent complaint - that dynos
make no sense because they slow a rider down.

I related what some researchers call "a natural experiment" - that is,
a change made inadvertently, or for reasons not connected to the
present question. Natural experiments can still yield reasonably good
data. Yes, in this case it wasn't as precise as laboratory data -
but then, if I gave laboratory data, Tom or other more obnoxious
people would say "That can't be trusted."

Mine was a real world experience. Conditions were constant except for
the sudden engagement of the dyno. The main weakness is that I know
the before and after speeds only approximately. But I know that there
was very little reduction in speed, which was all I cared about.

That is what you confirmed from your own experience. Yet you argue
with me! How odd.

- Frank Krygowski


I was replying to your pedantic remark 'As always: Sorry for introducing real numbers into a discussion. '. Those are not real numbers and certainly can not be checked. We have to believe you. In that case we can also believe Tom saying that thy dyno slowed him down considerably. BTW I think going from 20 to 19 mph is quite a bit for some. Bottom line is a dyno(hub) cost you 5-10 W, a battery powered light not.

Lou


I think that you may have missed the part that Tom wrote about the 30
watt rim driven generator.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #269  
Old February 16th 20, 12:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Better Braking?

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 2:30:14 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 2:49:36 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 8:00:21 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/15/2020 3:16 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 5:30:59 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 7:40:02 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 11:23:24 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 14 February 2020 12:00:11 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/13/2020 5:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 2:36:58 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:

Own Data? You mean like your assertions that a cheap Chinese
flashlight is a perfect bicycle head light? ...

I have taken Steven's word at the effectiveness of "cheap Chinese flashlights as bicycle lights" and he was completely correct. Sorry if you seem to think that you know anything about anything but you have shown yourself to be a great deal heavier on opinion than knowledge of anything.

You say Mr. Scharf was completely correct when he touted cheap Chinese
flashlights as bike headlights. That was when he said dyno powered
headlights were terrible and foolish.

Problem is, Mr. Scharf is now using dyno powered headlights on his
bikes, and no longer seems to say cheap Chinese flashlights are perfect.

My first question is, was he completely correct back then? Or is he
completely correct now?

My second question regards specific details. My dyno powered LED
headlights illuminate the entire width of the lane, and simultaneously
illuminate stop signs up to a quarter mile away from me, all without
blinding oncoming riders.

The Chinese flashlight I tried could not do that, no matter how I
adjusted the tilt and the focus. It was a truly crappy headlight. What,
specifically, does yours do? What's its brand and model?



--
- Frank Krygowski

Some people use flashlights that have a narrow beam but good range. Those lights might be okay as a be seen light but they don't light up much of the road. Others use flashlights with adjustable focus that spread the beams to light of more of the road. the trouble is that when they do that they lose the range they need if riding in totally dark conditions with no city lights.

I really like my CygoLite Rover II light as it does light up the two lanes of the country roads around here and it does so no matter what speed I'm riding at. Also, I can move the battery and light unit from bike to bike easily. I do wish it had a bit more range. For that reason I was considering getting the Centauri or Trident. Dynamo lights simply don't meet my needs.

Cheers

I think that there was a GCN video of a rim driven dynamo light and it was pretty funny because it was just like I remembered it as a kid. As you pushed the pedal down you would get a light and as you were changing over to the opposite the bike would stop from the massive resistance of a 30 watt dynamo. If Frank really uses those things he must ride a bike with a triple and a 26 to 42 gear ratio.

Tom, you have a problem confusing fantasy with reality.

Let me describe a spontaneous, unplanned dynamo test I did once. I've
described it before, but you probably wouldn't remember.

I was on a solo bike tour, heading to Bloomington IN where my kid was
soon to finish college. ("Dad, you've been talking about riding your
bike here. This is your last chance.")

I was on a nice, empty, flat four lane highway heading due west, and
feeling good because I was cranking along nicely at 20 mph despite my
full camping load.

Then I hit a bump in the pavement. After that, I heard some new noise
from my bike, and to my dismay my speed dropped about a mile per hour.

I remember checking for dragging brakes by squeezing the levers and
looking at the brake arms. Nothing. I didn't stop, but I worried
about what damage I had done that was slowing my bike. Then I realized
the bump had caused my generator to click on. I clicked it off and my
speed returned.

So at the power output needed for 20 mph, putting on the generator
slowed me to maybe 19 mph. This was with a bottom bracket generator,
but I haven't seen any real difference with a bottle dyno as I set
them up. And note, this matches Chris Juden's numbers that John
alluded to. Let me know if you need a link.

As always: Sorry for introducing real numbers into a discussion.

- Frank Krygowski

Hmm, you saying that your speed dropped from 20-19 mph in uncontrolled conditions are real numbers?

Those were the numbers I experienced. A dead flat four lane road with no
traffic is a fairly simple test situation. And again, it was at least
roughly corroborated by tests I've done and others have done.

Do you have different numbers?


--
- Frank Krygowski


It is crappy research Frank, you should know that. Maybe a tad better than saying 'these brakes are better' after using them for a longer time. Your real speed could went from 19.6 mph to 18.6 mph or from 19.6 mph to 19.4 mph. Who knows. When I was in the market for a dyno hub I wanted the one with the highest efficiency and my choice was based on measurements in a laboratory with real instruments. It is not difficult in these conditions to measure accurately. After my choice I'm not the least interested in numbers anymore and just use the damn thing and not trying to convince/impress others with numbers that don't say anything. When I switch the light on and of a don't notice anything in feel and speed but I have to reach down to switch it on or off which changes the situation so this doesn't anything either, but I know that I go from 6-7 Watt to 0.5-1 Watt turning in on and off.
BTW my good friend who is a skilled and enthusiast brick layer agrees with me.


You're losing track of the conversation, Lou. My post was to counter
Tom Kunich's claim that the dynamo slowed the bike almost to a stop.
His is an exaggerated variation on a frequent complaint - that dynos
make no sense because they slow a rider down.

I related what some researchers call "a natural experiment" - that is,
a change made inadvertently, or for reasons not connected to the
present question. Natural experiments can still yield reasonably good
data. Yes, in this case it wasn't as precise as laboratory data -
but then, if I gave laboratory data, Tom or other more obnoxious
people would say "That can't be trusted."

Mine was a real world experience. Conditions were constant except for
the sudden engagement of the dyno. The main weakness is that I know
the before and after speeds only approximately. But I know that there
was very little reduction in speed, which was all I cared about.

That is what you confirmed from your own experience. Yet you argue
with me! How odd.


Not odd at all. I don't doubt the drag scrubbed off some speed, but even your story suggests confounding factors like tracking down a noise, looking around for dragging brakes, etc. It's hard to do all those things while maintaining speed.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #270  
Old February 16th 20, 02:15 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,511
Default Better Braking?

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 6:57:47 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 2:30:14 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 2:49:36 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 8:00:21 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/15/2020 3:16 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 5:30:59 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 7:40:02 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 11:23:24 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 14 February 2020 12:00:11 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/13/2020 5:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 2:36:58 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:

Own Data? You mean like your assertions that a cheap Chinese
flashlight is a perfect bicycle head light? ...

I have taken Steven's word at the effectiveness of "cheap Chinese flashlights as bicycle lights" and he was completely correct. Sorry if you seem to think that you know anything about anything but you have shown yourself to be a great deal heavier on opinion than knowledge of anything..

You say Mr. Scharf was completely correct when he touted cheap Chinese
flashlights as bike headlights. That was when he said dyno powered
headlights were terrible and foolish.

Problem is, Mr. Scharf is now using dyno powered headlights on his
bikes, and no longer seems to say cheap Chinese flashlights are perfect.

My first question is, was he completely correct back then? Or is he
completely correct now?

My second question regards specific details. My dyno powered LED
headlights illuminate the entire width of the lane, and simultaneously
illuminate stop signs up to a quarter mile away from me, all without
blinding oncoming riders.

The Chinese flashlight I tried could not do that, no matter how I
adjusted the tilt and the focus. It was a truly crappy headlight. What,
specifically, does yours do? What's its brand and model?



--
- Frank Krygowski

Some people use flashlights that have a narrow beam but good range. Those lights might be okay as a be seen light but they don't light up much of the road. Others use flashlights with adjustable focus that spread the beams to light of more of the road. the trouble is that when they do that they lose the range they need if riding in totally dark conditions with no city lights.

I really like my CygoLite Rover II light as it does light up the two lanes of the country roads around here and it does so no matter what speed I'm riding at. Also, I can move the battery and light unit from bike to bike easily. I do wish it had a bit more range. For that reason I was considering getting the Centauri or Trident. Dynamo lights simply don't meet my needs.

Cheers

I think that there was a GCN video of a rim driven dynamo light and it was pretty funny because it was just like I remembered it as a kid. As you pushed the pedal down you would get a light and as you were changing over to the opposite the bike would stop from the massive resistance of a 30 watt dynamo. If Frank really uses those things he must ride a bike with a triple and a 26 to 42 gear ratio.

Tom, you have a problem confusing fantasy with reality.

Let me describe a spontaneous, unplanned dynamo test I did once. I've
described it before, but you probably wouldn't remember.

I was on a solo bike tour, heading to Bloomington IN where my kid was
soon to finish college. ("Dad, you've been talking about riding your
bike here. This is your last chance.")

I was on a nice, empty, flat four lane highway heading due west, and
feeling good because I was cranking along nicely at 20 mph despite my
full camping load.

Then I hit a bump in the pavement. After that, I heard some new noise
from my bike, and to my dismay my speed dropped about a mile per hour.

I remember checking for dragging brakes by squeezing the levers and
looking at the brake arms. Nothing. I didn't stop, but I worried
about what damage I had done that was slowing my bike. Then I realized
the bump had caused my generator to click on. I clicked it off and my
speed returned.

So at the power output needed for 20 mph, putting on the generator
slowed me to maybe 19 mph. This was with a bottom bracket generator,
but I haven't seen any real difference with a bottle dyno as I set
them up. And note, this matches Chris Juden's numbers that John
alluded to. Let me know if you need a link.

As always: Sorry for introducing real numbers into a discussion.

- Frank Krygowski

Hmm, you saying that your speed dropped from 20-19 mph in uncontrolled conditions are real numbers?

Those were the numbers I experienced. A dead flat four lane road with no
traffic is a fairly simple test situation. And again, it was at least
roughly corroborated by tests I've done and others have done.

Do you have different numbers?


--
- Frank Krygowski

It is crappy research Frank, you should know that. Maybe a tad better than saying 'these brakes are better' after using them for a longer time. Your real speed could went from 19.6 mph to 18.6 mph or from 19.6 mph to 19..4 mph. Who knows. When I was in the market for a dyno hub I wanted the one with the highest efficiency and my choice was based on measurements in a laboratory with real instruments. It is not difficult in these conditions to measure accurately. After my choice I'm not the least interested in numbers anymore and just use the damn thing and not trying to convince/impress others with numbers that don't say anything. When I switch the light on and of a don't notice anything in feel and speed but I have to reach down to switch it on or off which changes the situation so this doesn't anything either, but I know that I go from 6-7 Watt to 0.5-1 Watt turning in on and off.
BTW my good friend who is a skilled and enthusiast brick layer agrees with me.


You're losing track of the conversation, Lou. My post was to counter
Tom Kunich's claim that the dynamo slowed the bike almost to a stop.
His is an exaggerated variation on a frequent complaint - that dynos
make no sense because they slow a rider down.

I related what some researchers call "a natural experiment" - that is,
a change made inadvertently, or for reasons not connected to the
present question. Natural experiments can still yield reasonably good
data. Yes, in this case it wasn't as precise as laboratory data -
but then, if I gave laboratory data, Tom or other more obnoxious
people would say "That can't be trusted."

Mine was a real world experience. Conditions were constant except for
the sudden engagement of the dyno. The main weakness is that I know
the before and after speeds only approximately. But I know that there
was very little reduction in speed, which was all I cared about.

That is what you confirmed from your own experience. Yet you argue
with me! How odd.


Not odd at all. I don't doubt the drag scrubbed off some speed, but even your story suggests confounding factors like tracking down a noise, looking around for dragging brakes, etc. It's hard to do all those things while maintaining speed.


Properly understood, my story should tell you I checked for confounding factors
and found none. The slight decrease in speed was due entirely to the dynamo..

And of course if something else were also contributing to the slight drop in
speed, that would mean the dyno drag was even less. My whole point was that the
drag was small.

- Frank Krygowski
 




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