A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Disk Brakes Again



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old May 27th 19, 03:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Disk Brakes Again

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 7:13:33 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 8:27:34 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:28:47 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/25/2019 7:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 2:21:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:08:51 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:

You don’t have to be a pro to be competitive. That argument is not only
specious but insulting.

I said "What doesn't make sense is very ordinary riders mimicking every choice
the pro racers make."

That seems insulting to you?

Why?

Because you belittle people for buying light equipment and supposedly "mimicking" pro racers. That is an unmistakable put down. How could that not be insulting?
What is an acceptable Frank bike? A Flying Pigeon?

Well, what I actually said was "mimicking every choice the pro racers
make." That was much more than just buying light equipment.

And of course, I'm not trying to forbid anything. I'm trying to discuss.

I have many riding friends. I've watched them buy custom steel bikes,
super-light aluminum ones, carbon fiber ones, aero ones, recumbents and
more. I've watched them follow every shifter upgrade from 5 cog friction
through 11 cog electronic. (Well, no Rohloffs yet in my crowd.) I've
seen guys go though great lengths to lighten their existing bikes. A few
now have switched to disc brakes. A couple are experimenting with wider
tires - 32 to 35 mm or so.

I'm sorry, but I just haven't see all that make a difference. The guys
who were faster than me (almost always the ones who put serious time,
effort and pain into training) stayed faster than me. The ones who were
slower stayed slower.

I know there are guys who enjoy hard riding with buddies and sprinting
to the next telephone pole. I've done plenty of that. And if one guy
like that drops a couple thousand bucks on new aero carbon wheels, he'll
win a few more telephone pole trophies. If, that is, there actually were
telephone pole trophies. But should he really feel proud for outspending
his friend? And if the friend retaliates with even pricier equipment,
what's the point?


Nobody I know is retaliating against anyone by buying "pricier" equipment.

I'm not giving anyone a free pass here. There are stupid purchases -- cutting edge junk that falls apart or doesn't work well, things that are too light and break, bizarre designs good for one thing like some of the newer gravel bike designs that really shine in specific conditions and pretty much suck everywhere else. I don't support buying a bike as a display of wealth. Lou's Canyon doesn't fall into any of those categories.

I can understand the appeal of fine equipment, up to a point. One of my
earliest bicycling buddies said "I can't afford the world's best stereo
system or the world's best car. But I can afford the world's best bike."
I could understand his pride even though I don't have whatever gene
makes people covet "the best in the world."

But OTOH, he was talking about an early 1970s Raleigh Professional.
Adjusted for inflation, that would cost less than $2000 today - less
than some sets of aero wheels.


A Raleigh Pro was never the best in the world. BTW, a 1976 Raleigh Pro was $650. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/retrora...76-prices.html Inflation adjusted, that is $2,919.27.

For that money today, you can get this: https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ae...road-cf-sl-7-0 Well, O.K., its $2,999. Even Canyon's super-bikes are a great bank for the buck.

BTW, in 1976 I spent close to $1,000 on a custom steel sport touring bike with Phil hubs and BB and some other exotic components like ER Ti spindle pedals (that broke), but not Campy except for some cable clips. It was mostly Dura Ace. My next bike was an all Campy and Phil racing bike. It was gorgeous. I bought it to retaliate against my meager savings account. I spent a huge amount of my college earnings on bike stuff. I bought a used '69 PX10 while in high school. Had I only invested in IBM stock!

-- Jay Beattie.


Jay - I have some of the best stuff available in my mind and I don't believe I've ever gotten even close to $2,000.


Are you saying that you have never spent more than $2K for a new bike with some of the best stuff available? Did you buy used?

-- Jay Beattie.
Ads
  #42  
Old May 27th 19, 08:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Disk Brakes Again

On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 3:03:19 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 2:08:51 PM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 5/25/2019 2:19 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/25/2019 2:16 PM, wrote:


Aerodynamics makes sense, so CF rims make sense, so disk
brakes makes sense. Simple. The only reason pro riders
are/were reluctant to use disk braces is weight.


Aerodynamics and CF rims and disk brakes make sense if
you're a pro racer who must chase after every diminishing
return.

What doesn't make sense is very ordinary riders mimicking
every choice the pro racers make.

I know a couple little kids who enjoy putting on little
capes, like their "super heroes." It's much the same thing.


It's not the same thing at all, else you would ride one
bicycle and it would be a $59.95 XMart MTB.

People like what they like and the reasons they give me in
the bike shop are different from the reasons they tell
fellow riders or their intimate associates. Who knows why? I
suspect the rider doesn't know why, but he likes it.

Bikes and cycling equipment once existed on a spectrum but
now on a branching growing fractal, each arm of which has a
spectrum. Tubulars? Clinchers? A little aero or a lot? CF
with aluminum brake track or all carbon? And sizes in
mind-numbing profusion. None of this is bad because - truly
- people like what they like.

Just as there is no one 'best' rim, there is no arbiter of
'best'. Just like life itself.


You don’t have to be a pro to be competitive. That argument is not only
specious but insulting.

--
duane


One of the reasons that the peleton is giving for so many more crashes is
the disk brakes in a peleton where many still ride rim brakes. They say
the braking points are very different and that is what is causing the crashes.

You don't really think that you need disks to be competitive do you? 1..
Climbing - disks ARE heavier and the bike has to be built heavier to
handle the dramatically different placement of forces. 2. TT - disks are
less aero. 3. Sprinting - less aero and heavier. 4. descending - WHY all
of the single rider descending crashes that appear to be the rider on the
entirely wrong line? Is the insinuation that riders are less expert now?

So I would be more likely to suspect that Joe Clubrider is buying it
because the pros are riding them. And the pros are riding them because
the manufacturer charges and extra $500-$700 for them.

I most hardily do not agree with Jay about increase safety of braking in
the wet. Though since he must ride often in the rain he probably has a
better idea of it than I who only ride there when caught out. But again -
I never had brake problems in the rain but rather tire traction problems.


My reply was not exactly about disk brakes. It was about someone being
criticized for using carbon rims and not being on the pro tour.

From my understanding disk brakes are preferable with carbon rims. I don’t
have either so can’t comment further.

--
duane


You can get a set of Chinese aero carbon rims for the cost of cheap Fulcrum aluminum wheels. They have about the same wear characteristics - the Fulcrum rims have wear indicators that disappear with surprising speed because the attempt is to make light wheels.

There is a video on YouTube of "12,000 km wear test of Cheap Chinese Carbon Wheels" and after that period of time which a little past the distance at which you better get another set of aluminum wheels they are just beginning to show signs that they only have another couple of thousand left in them.

NOTE: The cheap carbon tubeless are NOT made as well as the Clinchers. The Clinchers have MUCH tighter spokes and so don't wander around like the tubeless do.

I couldn't tell any difference from heavy side gusts with the clinchers than from a shallow wheel. That is not the case with the tubeless with a lot less spoke tension.

The Chinese hubs range from good to remarkably good.
  #43  
Old May 27th 19, 09:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Disk Brakes Again

On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 7:10:54 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 7:13:33 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 8:27:34 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:28:47 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/25/2019 7:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 2:21:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:08:51 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:

You don’t have to be a pro to be competitive. That argument is not only
specious but insulting.

I said "What doesn't make sense is very ordinary riders mimicking every choice
the pro racers make."

That seems insulting to you?

Why?

Because you belittle people for buying light equipment and supposedly "mimicking" pro racers. That is an unmistakable put down. How could that not be insulting?
What is an acceptable Frank bike? A Flying Pigeon?

Well, what I actually said was "mimicking every choice the pro racers
make." That was much more than just buying light equipment.

And of course, I'm not trying to forbid anything. I'm trying to discuss.

I have many riding friends. I've watched them buy custom steel bikes,
super-light aluminum ones, carbon fiber ones, aero ones, recumbents and
more. I've watched them follow every shifter upgrade from 5 cog friction
through 11 cog electronic. (Well, no Rohloffs yet in my crowd.) I've
seen guys go though great lengths to lighten their existing bikes. A few
now have switched to disc brakes. A couple are experimenting with wider
tires - 32 to 35 mm or so.

I'm sorry, but I just haven't see all that make a difference. The guys
who were faster than me (almost always the ones who put serious time,
effort and pain into training) stayed faster than me. The ones who were
slower stayed slower.

I know there are guys who enjoy hard riding with buddies and sprinting
to the next telephone pole. I've done plenty of that. And if one guy
like that drops a couple thousand bucks on new aero carbon wheels, he'll
win a few more telephone pole trophies. If, that is, there actually were
telephone pole trophies. But should he really feel proud for outspending
his friend? And if the friend retaliates with even pricier equipment,
what's the point?

Nobody I know is retaliating against anyone by buying "pricier" equipment.

I'm not giving anyone a free pass here. There are stupid purchases -- cutting edge junk that falls apart or doesn't work well, things that are too light and break, bizarre designs good for one thing like some of the newer gravel bike designs that really shine in specific conditions and pretty much suck everywhere else. I don't support buying a bike as a display of wealth. Lou's Canyon doesn't fall into any of those categories.

I can understand the appeal of fine equipment, up to a point. One of my
earliest bicycling buddies said "I can't afford the world's best stereo
system or the world's best car. But I can afford the world's best bike."
I could understand his pride even though I don't have whatever gene
makes people covet "the best in the world."

But OTOH, he was talking about an early 1970s Raleigh Professional.
Adjusted for inflation, that would cost less than $2000 today - less
than some sets of aero wheels.

A Raleigh Pro was never the best in the world. BTW, a 1976 Raleigh Pro was $650. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/retrora...76-prices.html Inflation adjusted, that is $2,919.27.

For that money today, you can get this: https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ae...road-cf-sl-7-0 Well, O.K., its $2,999. Even Canyon's super-bikes are a great bank for the buck.

BTW, in 1976 I spent close to $1,000 on a custom steel sport touring bike with Phil hubs and BB and some other exotic components like ER Ti spindle pedals (that broke), but not Campy except for some cable clips. It was mostly Dura Ace. My next bike was an all Campy and Phil racing bike. It was gorgeous. I bought it to retaliate against my meager savings account. I spent a huge amount of my college earnings on bike stuff. I bought a used '69 PX10 while in high school. Had I only invested in IBM stock!

-- Jay Beattie.


Jay - I have some of the best stuff available in my mind and I don't believe I've ever gotten even close to $2,000.


Are you saying that you have never spent more than $2K for a new bike with some of the best stuff available? Did you buy used?

-- Jay Beattie.


In general I buy either lightly used or shop demos. The Colnago was bought from a shop two years old and never put together. The new owner partially assembled it and decided it was too large for him and I bought it for a song.. The BB had never been installed. The shift components were used and the levers completely rebuilt. The brakes, chain and cassette were new. The stem and bars were new. The wheels were new. The Pinarello Stelvio didn't appear to have been as much used as abused. I did a total rebuild. The Basso is about to get the same rebuild. The Time was bought new. At the time I bought all of the components new since I was working then. Total price at that time (2004?) was under $2,000 though it was not Record.

The Ridley looked new when I got it from Holland. Supposedly it was new but I don't know how that could have been from Holland. All of the components were added new. 105 and other manufacturers at that level.

The Redline is VERY impressive. It looked like a brand-new frame and fork when I bought it. All the components were new and it was set up as a flat bar bike since I wanted disk brakes and drop bar hydraulic levers had just appeared and cost a fortune. To say I was unimpressed with disk brakes is a large understatement. I changed the Ridley over to TRP V-brakes and that is perfect.

My brother had the DuraAce on his Giant fail completely. Now it was being kept in my garage and the dryer blows fine particles into the air that the filter doesn't catch. My Ultegra group was used and looked and worked like new. Within six months it too doesn't work correctly. No lubrication or attempt at cleaning seems to make any difference.
  #44  
Old May 27th 19, 09:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Disk Brakes Again

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 9:23:45 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/26/2019 9:52 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 24, 2019 at 10:07:31 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 24, 2019 at 9:27:51 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
I don't know how many of you watched the Amgen Tour of California but I think it was a Frenchman that got way hell and gone off of the front on Stage 5 I think.

As he was descending a rather long and steep climb he looked like an absolute beginner. All of his lines were screwed up and he almost went off the road several times. On one occasion he ran off of the road and up onto the sloped dirt siding.

I could not understand how someone that could ride 7 minutes off the front of a 140 mile race was so amateurish descending. He wasn't tired because he kept his lead for a very long way after the descent finishing with a full 7 minute lead.

Two days ago during some rain I was looking at videos and ran across one of them by a pro that showed himself descending almost identically amateurishly. The same bad lines though the corners and the same very dangerous lines.

He blamed this entirely on his disk brakes. He said climbing they drag and make noises and descending they cannot be relied upon to slow you properly. The upshot is he said that NO PRO would choose disk brakes over rim brakes and that this was just another gadget to up the price of a bike.

When I was talking here about how too F-ing powerful the large disks were and how much better the V-brakes were on a cross bike I got a whole lot of static. Well it appears that the same problem is on road bikes with the smaller disks.

They also have an aero disadvantage and I can tell you that the new bikes are so aero that you have to be careful descending in a group because you keep closing up on those in front.

The original idea was to have an alternate way to brake so that you wouldn't wear out the braking surface of carbon wheels. But using the artificial cork brake pads allows you to use a set of carbon wheels as long as you can the super-light aluminum wheels with standard brake pads.

Although we are presently in a trade dispute with China I don't expect that to last long and carbon wheels from China only seem to have one problem - they do not have much spoke tension and so move around too much in side winds. And they are spectacularly cheap.

While the US made carbon wheels are slightly more aero it isn't by much and unless you're riding TT's it isn't worth paying six to eight times the price.

Another problem - rim brakes put all of the braking forces at the strongest portion of the bike. Disks put the forces at the weakest. This forces manufacturers to make much heavier forks and rear stays. And the axles have gone to much larger sizes that cannot be used with quick releases. Pro mechanics no long change out wheels on bikes but make entire bike changes and that costs a lot more time than it used to.

All in all I think that disks are nothing more than something different to buy if you're a non-mechanical enthusiast that is likely to go with the flow.

Here is what some pros say: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX_EPa0ZuSM

Discs do give better braking with CF rims, they don't heat rim glue, so you don't get sew-ups squirming around on the rims. If I were doing a long descent with lots of braking on sew-ups, I might prefer a disc. Otherwise, on a rapid descent on a racing bike with clinchers on aluminum rims on dry pavement, there is no a whole lot of difference between the two, assuming both are properly adjusted and the pistons lubricated. I own both and don't find much difference, except in ways that are equally bad, e.g. rim brakes grabbing at seams or with contaminants on the rim and discs shuddering or grabbing or screaming.

If disc brakes are juiced up to the point where light braking locks up the wheel, then that's a problem. If one is used to the requisite heavy hand to get good rear braking with a cable caliper brake, then that can be a problem with discs. I had to adjust after a couple of fish-tailing experiences.

Discs are the clear winner in wet-weather riding, but on dry pavement, it's just a matter of feel and personal preference. In professional racing, there are other considerations.

-- Jay Beattie.


I have had very long rides in the rain though not by choice. I never had a single problem with the brakes but with the tires. Stronger brakes would make that problem worse yet.

Since aluminum rims actually conduct heat a lot more directly than carbon wheels what would make you single out carbon wheels?

I have been thrown over the bars - WAY over the bars on my cross bike when I was braking and a trail bump locked the front wheel solid and releasing the brakes doesn't release the disk brake the same speed.

On my other cross bike I have TRP 9.0 brakes and they are so superior I have told that story more times than necessary.

I think that team mechanic summed it up - "The industry wants it and it is coming whether we want it or not. So we might as well get used to the idea."


The industry wants it for racers because a significant number of
ordinary cyclists will want whatever the racers use - as I said earlier.


Maybe, but unlike some equipment first seen on racing bikes -- SIS, step-in pedals, electronic shifting, X + 1 speed, etc. -- the pro peleton seems to be following the consumer market. My 2006 Cannondale CX was sold with discs when they were still prohibited by the UCI -- totally ruining my Euro pro CX career. The Trek Portland had discs. Phil Wood had a disc brake in the mid to late '70s. Small rotor hydraulic discs were introduced by Shimano in 2013 and not seen in the TdF until five years later. Yes, putting them on TdF bikes stimulates the market, assuming consumers pay attention to what's on TdF bikes, which is a questionable assumption. Most people don't follow pro racing and just go into bike shops and look around.

And for Tom, carbon rim wheels are hard to stop when wet and they are poor at dissipating heat. Discs fix a lot of problems with carbon wheels. I've been riding on cable or hydraulic road discs for 13 years and have never thrown myself over the bars. I have locked up a rear wheel because rear braking is so much more positive, so I avoid being ham-handed. Discs have their own set of problems and aren't perfect, but like I said, they're great wet weather brakes, and you don't grind your rims into oblivion.

-- Jay Beattie.



  #45  
Old May 27th 19, 10:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Disk Brakes Again

On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 1:12:46 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 7:10:54 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 7:13:33 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 8:27:34 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:28:47 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/25/2019 7:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 2:21:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:08:51 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:

You don’t have to be a pro to be competitive. That argument is not only
specious but insulting.

I said "What doesn't make sense is very ordinary riders mimicking every choice
the pro racers make."

That seems insulting to you?

Why?

Because you belittle people for buying light equipment and supposedly "mimicking" pro racers. That is an unmistakable put down. How could that not be insulting?
What is an acceptable Frank bike? A Flying Pigeon?

Well, what I actually said was "mimicking every choice the pro racers
make." That was much more than just buying light equipment.

And of course, I'm not trying to forbid anything. I'm trying to discuss.

I have many riding friends. I've watched them buy custom steel bikes,
super-light aluminum ones, carbon fiber ones, aero ones, recumbents and
more. I've watched them follow every shifter upgrade from 5 cog friction
through 11 cog electronic. (Well, no Rohloffs yet in my crowd.) I've
seen guys go though great lengths to lighten their existing bikes.. A few
now have switched to disc brakes. A couple are experimenting with wider
tires - 32 to 35 mm or so.

I'm sorry, but I just haven't see all that make a difference. The guys
who were faster than me (almost always the ones who put serious time,
effort and pain into training) stayed faster than me. The ones who were
slower stayed slower.

I know there are guys who enjoy hard riding with buddies and sprinting
to the next telephone pole. I've done plenty of that. And if one guy
like that drops a couple thousand bucks on new aero carbon wheels, he'll
win a few more telephone pole trophies. If, that is, there actually were
telephone pole trophies. But should he really feel proud for outspending
his friend? And if the friend retaliates with even pricier equipment,
what's the point?

Nobody I know is retaliating against anyone by buying "pricier" equipment.

I'm not giving anyone a free pass here. There are stupid purchases -- cutting edge junk that falls apart or doesn't work well, things that are too light and break, bizarre designs good for one thing like some of the newer gravel bike designs that really shine in specific conditions and pretty much suck everywhere else. I don't support buying a bike as a display of wealth. Lou's Canyon doesn't fall into any of those categories.

I can understand the appeal of fine equipment, up to a point. One of my
earliest bicycling buddies said "I can't afford the world's best stereo
system or the world's best car. But I can afford the world's best bike."
I could understand his pride even though I don't have whatever gene
makes people covet "the best in the world."

But OTOH, he was talking about an early 1970s Raleigh Professional.
Adjusted for inflation, that would cost less than $2000 today - less
than some sets of aero wheels.

A Raleigh Pro was never the best in the world. BTW, a 1976 Raleigh Pro was $650. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/retrora...76-prices.html Inflation adjusted, that is $2,919.27.

For that money today, you can get this: https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ae...road-cf-sl-7-0 Well, O.K., its $2,999. Even Canyon's super-bikes are a great bank for the buck.

BTW, in 1976 I spent close to $1,000 on a custom steel sport touring bike with Phil hubs and BB and some other exotic components like ER Ti spindle pedals (that broke), but not Campy except for some cable clips. It was mostly Dura Ace. My next bike was an all Campy and Phil racing bike. It was gorgeous. I bought it to retaliate against my meager savings account. I spent a huge amount of my college earnings on bike stuff. I bought a used '69 PX10 while in high school. Had I only invested in IBM stock!

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay - I have some of the best stuff available in my mind and I don't believe I've ever gotten even close to $2,000.


Are you saying that you have never spent more than $2K for a new bike with some of the best stuff available? Did you buy used?

-- Jay Beattie.


In general I buy either lightly used or shop demos. The Colnago was bought from a shop two years old and never put together. The new owner partially assembled it and decided it was too large for him and I bought it for a song. The BB had never been installed. The shift components were used and the levers completely rebuilt. The brakes, chain and cassette were new. The stem and bars were new. The wheels were new. The Pinarello Stelvio didn't appear to have been as much used as abused. I did a total rebuild. The Basso is about to get the same rebuild. The Time was bought new. At the time I bought all of the components new since I was working then. Total price at that time (2004?) was under $2,000 though it was not Record.

The Ridley looked new when I got it from Holland. Supposedly it was new but I don't know how that could have been from Holland. All of the components were added new. 105 and other manufacturers at that level.

The Redline is VERY impressive. It looked like a brand-new frame and fork when I bought it. All the components were new and it was set up as a flat bar bike since I wanted disk brakes and drop bar hydraulic levers had just appeared and cost a fortune. To say I was unimpressed with disk brakes is a large understatement. I changed the Ridley over to TRP V-brakes and that is perfect.

My brother had the DuraAce on his Giant fail completely. Now it was being kept in my garage and the dryer blows fine particles into the air that the filter doesn't catch. My Ultegra group was used and looked and worked like new. Within six months it too doesn't work correctly. No lubrication or attempt at cleaning seems to make any difference.


Hmmm. I don't know what problems you're having, but a popular problem for me is the "last chain" syndrome: I change the chains before they elongate, and after the third chain, the cassettes are gone and don't shift well. There is no bad skipping like the old days -- just poor shifting, shifts hanging up and apparent ghost shifting. My son was whining about the shifting on his (formerly my) 10sp CAAD 9, and that was the problem. I threw on a cassette today, and it works flawlessly. That is a great bike -- last of the American produced Cannondales. You can have problems with replaceable internals on the Shimano shifters, too -- the internal plastic cable guides can get worn. If there are problems with non-replaceable parts, then you're stuck, but most issues can be solved with a WD40 flush.

-- Jay Beattie.


  #46  
Old May 27th 19, 10:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Disk Brakes Again

On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 5:08:00 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
You can have problems with replaceable internals on the Shimano shifters, too -- the internal plastic cable guides can get worn. If there are problems with non-replaceable parts, then you're stuck, but most issues can be solved with a WD40 flush.

-- Jay Beattie.


I sure wish that a simple WD-40 flush would correct the problem with my 9-Speed Dura Ace Brifters. There's no way I'm taking the right one apart to see what's in there.

Rather an expensive item to have to replace because some simple thing inside it might be worn or broken.

My Campy Mirage 9-Speed Ergo on the other hand has a rebuild kit and even another rebuild kit if I wanted to convert it to 8-speed.

Cheers
  #47  
Old May 27th 19, 11:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 547
Default Disk Brakes Again

On Mon, 27 May 2019 08:25:13 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/26/2019 11:49 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 18:06:08 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/26/2019 5:49 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 10:03:43 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:27:34 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:28:47 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/25/2019 7:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 2:21:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 5:08:51 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:

You don’t have to be a pro to be competitive. That argument is not only
specious but insulting.

I said "What doesn't make sense is very ordinary riders mimicking every choice
the pro racers make."

That seems insulting to you?

Why?

Because you belittle people for buying light equipment and supposedly "mimicking" pro racers. That is an unmistakable put down. How could that not be insulting?
What is an acceptable Frank bike? A Flying Pigeon?

Well, what I actually said was "mimicking every choice the pro racers
make." That was much more than just buying light equipment.

And of course, I'm not trying to forbid anything. I'm trying to discuss.

I have many riding friends. I've watched them buy custom steel bikes,
super-light aluminum ones, carbon fiber ones, aero ones, recumbents and
more. I've watched them follow every shifter upgrade from 5 cog friction
through 11 cog electronic. (Well, no Rohloffs yet in my crowd.) I've
seen guys go though great lengths to lighten their existing bikes. A few
now have switched to disc brakes. A couple are experimenting with wider
tires - 32 to 35 mm or so.

I'm sorry, but I just haven't see all that make a difference. The guys
who were faster than me (almost always the ones who put serious time,
effort and pain into training) stayed faster than me. The ones who were
slower stayed slower.

I know there are guys who enjoy hard riding with buddies and sprinting
to the next telephone pole. I've done plenty of that. And if one guy
like that drops a couple thousand bucks on new aero carbon wheels, he'll
win a few more telephone pole trophies. If, that is, there actually were
telephone pole trophies. But should he really feel proud for outspending
his friend? And if the friend retaliates with even pricier equipment,
what's the point?

Nobody I know is retaliating against anyone by buying "pricier" equipment.

I'm not giving anyone a free pass here. There are stupid purchases -- cutting edge junk that falls apart or doesn't work well, things that are too light and break, bizarre designs good for one thing like some of the newer gravel bike designs that really shine in specific conditions and pretty much suck everywhere else. I don't support buying a bike as a display of wealth. Lou's Canyon doesn't fall into any of those categories.

I can understand the appeal of fine equipment, up to a point. One of my
earliest bicycling buddies said "I can't afford the world's best stereo
system or the world's best car. But I can afford the world's best bike."
I could understand his pride even though I don't have whatever gene
makes people covet "the best in the world."

But OTOH, he was talking about an early 1970s Raleigh Professional.
Adjusted for inflation, that would cost less than $2000 today - less
than some sets of aero wheels.

A Raleigh Pro was never the best in the world. BTW, a 1976 Raleigh Pro was $650.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/retrora...76-prices.html Inflation adjusted, that is $2,919.27.

For that money today, you can get this: https://www.canyon.com/en-us/road/ae...road-cf-sl-7-0 Well, O.K., its $2,999. Even Canyon's super-bikes are a great bank for the buck.

I think at the moment that is the best bike you can buy for that kind of money.

Lou

But, having read the reference site it appears that one needs several
bicycles. There is the Road Bike, one assumes for riding on the roads,
and the Gravity bike? to ride in grave moments one supposes, then
there is the Urban bike for riding in the city and the Fitness bike
when one want to get some exercise. Damn! Four separate bicycles to do
what I can do with one 20 year old steel frame bike?


Four bicycles is not ridiculous. A Sunday morning road bike,
my beloved ancient Raleigh with steel mudguards, and a cute
little folder that easily goes with me to other cities where
local auto driving is undesirable. Then my fixie, which was
built expressly to avoid winter salt on the other bikes.

YMMV and probably does but each of them fills a real need
better than the others do. I gave away or sold everything else.


And than, of course, is the his and her's automobiles - gotta have a
car for those rainy days :-)


Buying cars for girls is simple self-preservation and keeps
her from ruining my clutch.


https://tinyurl.com/yyomsx6o
According to Patrick O'Rourke there are a number of mechanical devices
that increase sexual arousal, particularly in women. Chief among these
is the Mercedes-Benz 380SL convertible.
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #48  
Old May 27th 19, 11:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default Disk Brakes Again

On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 1:47:35 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 9:23:45 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/26/2019 9:52 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 24, 2019 at 10:07:31 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 24, 2019 at 9:27:51 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
I don't know how many of you watched the Amgen Tour of California but I think it was a Frenchman that got way hell and gone off of the front on Stage 5 I think.

As he was descending a rather long and steep climb he looked like an absolute beginner. All of his lines were screwed up and he almost went off the road several times. On one occasion he ran off of the road and up onto the sloped dirt siding.

I could not understand how someone that could ride 7 minutes off the front of a 140 mile race was so amateurish descending. He wasn't tired because he kept his lead for a very long way after the descent finishing with a full 7 minute lead.

Two days ago during some rain I was looking at videos and ran across one of them by a pro that showed himself descending almost identically amateurishly. The same bad lines though the corners and the same very dangerous lines.

He blamed this entirely on his disk brakes. He said climbing they drag and make noises and descending they cannot be relied upon to slow you properly. The upshot is he said that NO PRO would choose disk brakes over rim brakes and that this was just another gadget to up the price of a bike.

When I was talking here about how too F-ing powerful the large disks were and how much better the V-brakes were on a cross bike I got a whole lot of static. Well it appears that the same problem is on road bikes with the smaller disks.

They also have an aero disadvantage and I can tell you that the new bikes are so aero that you have to be careful descending in a group because you keep closing up on those in front.

The original idea was to have an alternate way to brake so that you wouldn't wear out the braking surface of carbon wheels. But using the artificial cork brake pads allows you to use a set of carbon wheels as long as you can the super-light aluminum wheels with standard brake pads.

Although we are presently in a trade dispute with China I don't expect that to last long and carbon wheels from China only seem to have one problem - they do not have much spoke tension and so move around too much in side winds. And they are spectacularly cheap.

While the US made carbon wheels are slightly more aero it isn't by much and unless you're riding TT's it isn't worth paying six to eight times the price.

Another problem - rim brakes put all of the braking forces at the strongest portion of the bike. Disks put the forces at the weakest. This forces manufacturers to make much heavier forks and rear stays. And the axles have gone to much larger sizes that cannot be used with quick releases. Pro mechanics no long change out wheels on bikes but make entire bike changes and that costs a lot more time than it used to.

All in all I think that disks are nothing more than something different to buy if you're a non-mechanical enthusiast that is likely to go with the flow.

Here is what some pros say: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX_EPa0ZuSM

Discs do give better braking with CF rims, they don't heat rim glue, so you don't get sew-ups squirming around on the rims. If I were doing a long descent with lots of braking on sew-ups, I might prefer a disc. Otherwise, on a rapid descent on a racing bike with clinchers on aluminum rims on dry pavement, there is no a whole lot of difference between the two, assuming both are properly adjusted and the pistons lubricated. I own both and don't find much difference, except in ways that are equally bad, e.g. rim brakes grabbing at seams or with contaminants on the rim and discs shuddering or grabbing or screaming.

If disc brakes are juiced up to the point where light braking locks up the wheel, then that's a problem. If one is used to the requisite heavy hand to get good rear braking with a cable caliper brake, then that can be a problem with discs. I had to adjust after a couple of fish-tailing experiences.

Discs are the clear winner in wet-weather riding, but on dry pavement, it's just a matter of feel and personal preference. In professional racing, there are other considerations.

-- Jay Beattie.

I have had very long rides in the rain though not by choice. I never had a single problem with the brakes but with the tires. Stronger brakes would make that problem worse yet.

Since aluminum rims actually conduct heat a lot more directly than carbon wheels what would make you single out carbon wheels?

I have been thrown over the bars - WAY over the bars on my cross bike when I was braking and a trail bump locked the front wheel solid and releasing the brakes doesn't release the disk brake the same speed.

On my other cross bike I have TRP 9.0 brakes and they are so superior I have told that story more times than necessary.

I think that team mechanic summed it up - "The industry wants it and it is coming whether we want it or not. So we might as well get used to the idea."


The industry wants it for racers because a significant number of
ordinary cyclists will want whatever the racers use - as I said earlier..


Maybe, but unlike some equipment first seen on racing bikes -- SIS, step-in pedals, electronic shifting, X + 1 speed, etc. -- the pro peleton seems to be following the consumer market. My 2006 Cannondale CX was sold with discs when they were still prohibited by the UCI -- totally ruining my Euro pro CX career. The Trek Portland had discs. Phil Wood had a disc brake in the mid to late '70s. Small rotor hydraulic discs were introduced by Shimano in 2013 and not seen in the TdF until five years later. Yes, putting them on TdF bikes stimulates the market, assuming consumers pay attention to what's on TdF bikes, which is a questionable assumption. Most people don't follow pro racing and just go into bike shops and look around.

And for Tom, carbon rim wheels are hard to stop when wet and they are poor at dissipating heat. Discs fix a lot of problems with carbon wheels. I've been riding on cable or hydraulic road discs for 13 years and have never thrown myself over the bars. I have locked up a rear wheel because rear braking is so much more positive, so I avoid being ham-handed. Discs have their own set of problems and aren't perfect, but like I said, they're great wet weather brakes, and you don't grind your rims into oblivion.

-- Jay Beattie.


That isn't clear Jay. While normal old Carbon Fiber conducts heat up to half as good as aluminum, the unidirectional stuff conducts twice as good a aluminum.

The problem is that carbon fiber itself is a good conductor while the resin isn't. So depending on the construction technique you could have a pretty heat conductive rim. And if they were to put it together with graphene strips that a whole other ball game since graphene conducts heat 30 times better than aluminum.

Also, they had this really great test of aluminum vs carbon fiber bars in YouTube. The final result was that aluminum has a fatigue limit while carbon fiber fatigue limit was so high they never reached it in three days of constant running. However - in a crash that exceeded the strength of the material carbon fiber would break while aluminum would bend.
  #49  
Old May 28th 19, 12:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Disk Brakes Again

On 5/27/2019 6:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

The problem is that carbon fiber itself is a good conductor while the resin isn't. So depending on the construction technique you could have a pretty heat conductive rim. And if they were to put it together with graphene strips that a whole other ball game since graphene conducts heat 30 times better than aluminum.


Watch for bike brakes that use heat pipes.

You read it here first!

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #50  
Old May 28th 19, 01:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 547
Default Disk Brakes Again

On Mon, 27 May 2019 19:56:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2019 6:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

The problem is that carbon fiber itself is a good conductor while the resin isn't. So depending on the construction technique you could have a pretty heat conductive rim. And if they were to put it together with graphene strips that a whole other ball game since graphene conducts heat 30 times better than aluminum.


Watch for bike brakes that use heat pipes.

You read it here first!


Heavy trucks working in the mountains of California used to use water
cooled brakes. Perhaps that is a solution.
--

Cheers,

John B.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Disk vs. V-Brakes mike[_3_] Techniques 19 May 9th 07 03:46 AM
Disk brakes? Sticky Wicket Techniques 112 February 8th 07 05:27 PM
Disk brakes General 13 July 3rd 06 03:44 PM
Disk brakes? Hot! ain Mountain Biking 20 May 5th 04 12:57 PM
Disk Brakes john Mountain Biking 4 January 22nd 04 02:44 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.