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A March on Washington... on Bicycle?



 
 
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  #131  
Old November 23rd 08, 05:37 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
ComandanteBanana
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Posts: 3,097
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

On Nov 22, 5:25*am, Peter Clinch wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:
I'm not saying you are lying, but the UK is NOT continental Europe,
and there seems to be a lot of resistance to the EU.


Is my friend lying?


I am saying you are confusing anecdotal data with useful statistical
data. *You quote anecdotes to support what you say, but my point in
pushing an anecdote back is to show you anecdotes don't realluy mean
much. *But you appear to rely on them. *"Here is a web log saying
someone thinks such and such, so that proves it!" *It doesn't.


I see, a definite connection. You live in Colombia, you need gated
communities, you live in the UK or Europe, you don't, and you live in
America, it's kind of in-between. In other words, the more civilized
the society is, the less need for gated communities. Never saw any in
Oslo or Canary Islands.


The need is perception over reality. *Not entirely unlike the need for
bike paths, in that respect.


So Economic Apartheid is not a reality in America. Funny, there's even
a book on the subject...


er, what? *I never said anything like that, so don't jump to such a
conclusion. *I said the /need/ for geted communities is largely one of
perception. *Which is nothing to do with economic apartheid.

You really do need to stop and read what people write, rather than just
ignoring what they write and printing something irrelevant you happen to
want to say as an "answer".


Perception is reality, and reality makes perception.

I'm sure you too have perceptions about life in Haiti, for example.
Ads
  #132  
Old November 23rd 08, 05:42 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
ComandanteBanana
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Posts: 3,097
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

On Nov 22, 1:18*pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * Peter Clinch writes:

KingOfTheApes wrote:
So Economic Apartheid is not a reality in America. Funny, there's even
a book on the subject...


er, what? *I never said anything like that, so don't jump to such a
conclusion. *I said the /need/ for geted communities is largely one of
perception. *Which is nothing to do with economic apartheid.


You really do need to stop and read what people write, rather than just
ignoring what they write and printing something irrelevant you happen to
want to say as an "answer".


Hello Peter :-)

Your debating adversary shall not heed your advice,
for he is an anti-bicycling (upon public roads and
streets) propagandist, through and through.

I'm sure he does stop and read what people write/say,
but changing the subject is one of his favourite
tactics.

It is futile to discuss his remarks & statements
at the ostensible level. *That just provides him
with opportunities to spew more propaganda. *I
suggest aiming straight for the (metaphorical)
heart or the brain.

Commandant Klink here is simply out to dissuade people
from riding upon public streets & roads and thereby
requiring of drivers the effort of thought. *His
strategy is to frighten bicyclists "out of the ways"
of drivers such as himself. *It is time to deal with
him at a strategic rather than a tactical level.

Any effort to dumb-down operating a motor vehicle
is pernicious. *But that is his ultimate goal.
His posting history proves that.


Tom, I'm saying the WHOLE SYSTEM, down to the lack of space for
cyclists and up to the gated communities, hints at a jungle where only
the strongest survive.

You get it, or playing dumb?

Read this and see my solutions to this jungle...

(Yes, bike facilities are in the program)

COMING OUT OF THE JUNGLE

"Communism forgets that life is individual. Capitalism forgets that
life is social, and the kingdom of brotherhood is found neither in the
thesis of communism nor the antithesis of capitalism but in a higher
synthesis. It is found in a higher synthesis that combines the truths
of both." -M.L. King

A PROGRAM FOR A BETTER WORLD

Why not build a new system? That offers PROSPERITY, SOCIAL JUSTICE and
FREEDOM; that discards the defects of both Communism and Capitalism;
and that places the system at the service of the human being, and not
the other way around. Why not HUMANISM?

Naturally, education and healthcare should be the maximum priorities;
they should be free --or low cost, in the case of higher education--
and accessible to all. Likewise, culture and sports should have a high
priority. The needs of women and children should receive special
attention (for example, adopting the affordable daycares; in general,
we would have much to learn from the Scandinavian model, though our
policy should emphasize that of "teaching them how fish," not of
"giving them the fish"). A POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY, that
includes competition and cooperation, would create a healthy
competition, and it would allow to satisfy the material and human
needs of all. (In this way, the cooperatives would have to be
efficient, while the capitalist enterprises would have to be more
humane; we would have much to learn from the Israeli kibbutz [non-
profit cooperatives]; and from the industrial cooperatives of
Mondragon, in the Basque Country [a "workers capitalism"].) We should
seek full employment (for instance, by creating jobs in the
construction of the transportation infrastructure, and a 30 hour
workweek should be enough). Public transportation should be A1. (The
city of Curitiba, in Brazil, offers us a functional model of
transportation; bicycle lanes should be implemented along all major
streets.) Our roads, where the Law of the Jungle rules, should be made
safer, say by enforcing passing on the left only. The homeless, who
have been pushed into our better parks, should be incorporated into
light but necessary duties, say picking up litter in exchange for
shared apartments and a minimum wage --there should be no homeless.
(Again, Curitiba is a model on this.) Junk food should have a warning
label (just like cigarettes), particularly the one destined to
children, and also be taxed to subsidize healthy alternatives. Housing
should be available at popular prices. (Prefabricated multifamily
units can help accomplish this; the movement of "New Urbanism" can
provide them with a sense of community and quality of life, say by
having abundant green areas.) Public corruption should be treated as
"public enemy No.1." TV and radio should be independent of Big
Business and the State. (This is due to two reasons: culturally,
because the ratings make bad programs become "good"... for business;
and, politically, because whoever has power over the media... will be
in power; however, people should be able to watch anything on video
and cable; the BBC offers us and example of an independent media.) The
"Free Press" should be democratized, so that, among other things, the
censorship of the opinions of the public is eradicated. Politicians
should live in the worst of the area they represent, so they know its
problems. And politics should become cheaper to avoid its control by
powerful groups (for example, offering free time on TV to the
candidates; we would have much to learn from the political model of
Switzerland [in particular, its political decentralization and its
opportunity to "vote with your feet" between cantons]). Nevertheless,
we should never follow neither anything nor anyone blindly. And, of
course, everything can be improved. Something to think about: While
the prohibition of drugs has been largely ineffective and costly (in
money, prison overpopulation, crime), regulated legalization --like
that of Holland-- can be a better solution to both addiction and
crime. And living free from fear of crime should be treated as a basic
need of society. The final form of this system would be determined by
the acceptance of the people themselves: Each and everyone of these
proposals should be submitted to referendum. And, the basis of
everything else: We should learn to live, not FROM, but WITH Nature.
This would amount to COMING OUT OF THE JUNGLE…


  #133  
Old November 23rd 08, 09:38 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
Tom Keats
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Posts: 3,193
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

In article ,
ComandanteBanana writes:
On Nov 22, 12:23*am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * Peter Clinch writes:



Though I suspect the most important driver of changing attitudes
will be the price if fuel going up, as that puts more peple on bikes.


Drivers taking to bikes doesn't necessarily change attitudes.
I think a lot of sidewalk riders are erstwhile drivers who
used to yell: "Get on the [expletive] sidewalk" at adjacent
cyclists. *Drivers freshly upon bicycles will bring drivers'
attitudes, P'sOV and styles to bear.

They will behave as they previously desired & expected
cyclists to behave, thinking they're doing the right things.
It'll take them a while for them to realize they've
been humbled.

It'll take a while longer for them to realize they haven't
been humbled at all.

It'll take even longer for them to realize that while they
haven't be humbled, they haven't necessarily been exalted --
they're just people among many, on the streets & roads of
the world.

Either you are very DEEP, or you don't make sense at all. OK, I'll
give you the benefit of the doubt, but what makes people ride
sidewalks is how deadly roads are --or how they are perceived to be.


You just love to scare riders off the roads.
That's your goal, your objective.
Matthew 7:16

But PERCEPTION IS REALITY, and nobody's doing a thing to change that

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sometimes you're almost funny.

perception, nor are the authorities cracking down on reckless drivers
who terrorize cyclists.
So what do you expect, cyclists to be stupid enough to ride among
predatory drivers?


Your propaganda rhetoric is so ridiculously over the top.

But keep trying. You no doubt will, anyway.

http://bicyclesafe.com/
http://www.dot.state.pa.us/BIKE/WEB/safety.htm
http://bccc.bc.ca/bikesafety/index.htm


--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
  #134  
Old November 23rd 08, 10:20 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
Peter Clinch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,852
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

ComandanteBanana wrote:

I see, a definite connection. You live in Colombia, you need gated
communities, you live in the UK or Europe, you don't, and you live in
America, it's kind of in-between. In other words, the more civilized
the society is, the less need for gated communities. Never saw any in
Oslo or Canary Islands.


I find it hard to believe that anyone can be dumb enough to think
all of the US, or all of Britain, or all of Columbia, or all of any
country on the planet, is equally safe everywhere within its
borders. But you go ahead and prove me wrong.

You don't listen, so time to stop pretending you might. Bye.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #135  
Old November 24th 08, 01:25 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
Edward Dolan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14,212
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe


"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
ComandanteBanana wrote:

I see, a definite connection. You live in Colombia, you need gated
communities, you live in the UK or Europe, you don't, and you live in
America, it's kind of in-between. In other words, the more civilized
the society is, the less need for gated communities. Never saw any in
Oslo or Canary Islands.


I find it hard to believe that anyone can be dumb enough to think all of
the US, or all of Britain, or all of Columbia, or all of any country on
the planet, is equally safe everywhere within its borders. But you go
ahead and prove me wrong.

You don't listen, so time to stop pretending you might. Bye.


CommandanteBanana is more right than poor old Pete of Dundee, Scotland. It
is possible to make some generalizations about Colombia the same as it is to
make some generalizations about Norway with a view to contrasting the
differences between the two. Frankly, the less we hear from Pete, the
better. I have never yet known him to be right about anything.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


  #136  
Old November 24th 08, 01:30 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
Edward Dolan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14,212
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe


"Tom Keats" wrote in message
...
In article
,
ComandanteBanana writes:
On Nov 22, 12:23 am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article ,
Peter Clinch writes:



Though I suspect the most important driver of changing attitudes
will be the price if fuel going up, as that puts more peple on bikes.

Drivers taking to bikes doesn't necessarily change attitudes.
I think a lot of sidewalk riders are erstwhile drivers who
used to yell: "Get on the [expletive] sidewalk" at adjacent
cyclists. Drivers freshly upon bicycles will bring drivers'
attitudes, P'sOV and styles to bear.

They will behave as they previously desired & expected
cyclists to behave, thinking they're doing the right things.
It'll take them a while for them to realize they've
been humbled.

It'll take a while longer for them to realize they haven't
been humbled at all.

It'll take even longer for them to realize that while they
haven't be humbled, they haven't necessarily been exalted --
they're just people among many, on the streets & roads of
the world.

Either you are very DEEP, or you don't make sense at all. OK, I'll
give you the benefit of the doubt, but what makes people ride
sidewalks is how deadly roads are --or how they are perceived to be.


You just love to scare riders off the roads.
That's your goal, your objective.
Matthew 7:16

But PERCEPTION IS REALITY, and nobody's doing a thing to change that

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sometimes you're almost funny.

perception, nor are the authorities cracking down on reckless drivers
who terrorize cyclists.
So what do you expect, cyclists to be stupid enough to ride among
predatory drivers?


Your propaganda rhetoric is so ridiculously over the top.

But keep trying. You no doubt will, anyway.

http://bicyclesafe.com/
http://www.dot.state.pa.us/BIKE/WEB/safety.htm
http://bccc.bc.ca/bikesafety/index.htm


Actually, it is very dangerous to ride a bicycle in Florida. The roads are
narrow and crowded and high speed with no shoulders. It is the perfect storm
for getting yourself killed.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


  #137  
Old November 24th 08, 04:39 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
KingOfTheApes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,468
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

On Nov 23, 11:48 am, "marika" wrote:
"Dane Buson" wrote in message

...



That's what I've observed for myself. That the thing that really
motivates most poeple is when the cost to their pocketbook rises. This
is especially true if it's a rapid rise. Inconveinence in the form of
traffic jams, poor parking and other things help also. But cost seems
to be a big driver (no pun intended) of people's change in behaviour.


--


the price in some places is down to 1.70, though


It's funny, gas prices are down, and so are SUV sales. So I guess
people will have to ride bikes because they can't afford cars.

Whatever the reason, the result is good, and I feel good...

Yeah, that's why I get so depressed... the price of oil is going
down.

But then I remember that we are in the middle of a huge economic
crisis and that the Big Three are trying to survive after producing
so
many fat SUVs, and finally I get happy.
  #138  
Old November 24th 08, 04:40 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
KingOfTheApes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,468
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

On Nov 23, 11:48 am, "marika" wrote:
"Dane Buson" wrote in message

...



That's what I've observed for myself. That the thing that really
motivates most poeple is when the cost to their pocketbook rises. This
is especially true if it's a rapid rise. Inconveinence in the form of
traffic jams, poor parking and other things help also. But cost seems
to be a big driver (no pun intended) of people's change in behaviour.


--


the price in some places is down to 1.70, though


It's funny, gas prices are down, and so are SUV sales. So I guess
people will have to ride bikes because they can't afford cars.

Whatever the reason, the result is good, and I feel good...

Yeah, that's why I get so depressed... the price of oil is going
down.

But then I remember that we are in the middle of a huge economic
crisis and that the Big Three are trying to survive after producing
so
many fat SUVs, and finally I get happy.

  #139  
Old November 24th 08, 04:43 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
KingOfTheApes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,468
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

On Nov 23, 11:55*am, "marika" wrote:
"ComandanteBanana" wrote in message

...



Tom, I'm saying the WHOLE SYSTEM, down to the lack of space for
cyclists and up to the gated communities, hints at a jungle where only
the strongest survive.


this is scary.


Yes, the jungle is scary.


You get it, or playing dumb?


this is really scary


Camouflage is a way of life in the jungle.


Read this and see my solutions to this jungle...
(Yes, bike facilities are in the program)
COMING OUT OF THE JUNGLE
"Communism forgets that life is individual.


can't remember discussing your work ethic with him


We are fighting the jungle.


Capitalism forgets that
life is social, and the kingdom of brotherhood is found neither in the
thesis of communism nor the antithesis of capitalism but in a higher
synthesis.


hard worker, no


Why work so hard to feed the lions.


It is found in a higher synthesis that combines the truths
of both." -M.L. King
A PROGRAM FOR A BETTER WORLD


this is promotional material for Space Nuts 2008


It's also a strategy for survival for the human species.
  #140  
Old November 24th 08, 04:47 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
KingOfTheApes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,468
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

On Nov 23, 3:38*pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * ComandanteBanana writes:





On Nov 22, 12:23*am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * Peter Clinch writes:


Though I suspect the most important driver of changing attitudes
will be the price if fuel going up, as that puts more peple on bikes..


Drivers taking to bikes doesn't necessarily change attitudes.
I think a lot of sidewalk riders are erstwhile drivers who
used to yell: "Get on the [expletive] sidewalk" at adjacent
cyclists. *Drivers freshly upon bicycles will bring drivers'
attitudes, P'sOV and styles to bear.


They will behave as they previously desired & expected
cyclists to behave, thinking they're doing the right things.
It'll take them a while for them to realize they've
been humbled.


It'll take a while longer for them to realize they haven't
been humbled at all.


It'll take even longer for them to realize that while they
haven't be humbled, they haven't necessarily been exalted --
they're just people among many, on the streets & roads of
the world.

Either you are very DEEP, or you don't make sense at all. OK, I'll
give you the benefit of the doubt, but what makes people ride
sidewalks is how deadly roads are --or how they are perceived to be.


You just love to scare riders off the roads.
That's your goal, your objective.
Matthew 7:16

But PERCEPTION IS REALITY, and nobody's doing a thing to change that


* * * ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sometimes you're almost funny.

perception, nor are the authorities cracking down on reckless drivers
who terrorize cyclists.
So what do you expect, cyclists to be stupid enough to ride among
predatory drivers?


Your propaganda rhetoric is so ridiculously over the top.

But keep trying. *You no doubt will, anyway.

http://bicyclesafe.com/http://www.do...fety/index.htm


Just tell me who are you in the jungle, SHEEP following the alpha-male
wolf, or hyena working for the lion?

I'm addressing the whole POLITICAL JUNGLE AS AN ECOSYSTEM OF HIERARCHY
AND LIES. SUVs are good here, bikes are not. Just the reverse of a
good moral stand.

If you are a cyclist in the capitalist jungle, you are dead meat. And
don't want to feed the vultures.



 




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