In praise of Sapim spokes

On Feb 1, 11:22*am, Chalo wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

Chalo wrote:

Danscomp.com. *That is, if you're content with Sapim 14ga ($.25 ea.)
or 14/15ga ($.40 ea.) spokes. *They cut spokes to order, so they
always have the length you want.

In *Europe the best touring and heavy duty wheels are built with Sapim
spokes, so I would say "highly desirable", rather than "content with"
which implies there is something better to aspire to.

I like Sapims. *In the US of A, most folks who insist on a particular
kind of spoke specify DT Swiss rather than the totally satisfactory
equivalents from Sapim, Wheelsmith, or Marwi.

Sapims are a little softer than DTs (not that it seems to matter). *I
even prefer the look of their less-shiny finish and visible butting.

Chalo

Problem with Sapim in the US is distribution, in that nobody
distributes them. KHS(not the bike but a small family run distributor)
occasionally has some but their invemntory is spotty and when they DO
have them, they are often only everyother size. Nobody distributes
Marwi, AFAIK. Wheelsmith are poor. I have seen more than a few fail,
in that they give up their strength when tensioning and stretch to the
point of failure. Tightening a nipple makes them longer/looser, not
tighter.

On Feb 1, 2:04Â*pm, thirty-six wrote:
On Feb 1, 7:53Â*pm, Chalo wrote:



russellseaton wrote:

I am not fond of Sapim's nipples. Â*The ones that Dans Comp sends with
its Sapim spokes are very long and large. Â*Not small and elegant
nipples like DT. Â*Last wheels I built I used DT spokes ordered from
Starbike in Germany.

I don't think Danscomp sends Sapim nipples; the ones I used to get
with Sapim spokes from Thor USA were really nice short things with a
spherical surface on the heads. Â*They're better than DT nipples for
angled insertion (like with high hub flanges or small diameter
rims).

http://www.sapim.be/index.php?st=pro.../product10.htm

I build and repair lots of wheels with both long and short nipples,
and I'm more or less indifferent either way. Â*DT standard nipples are
sharply machined and true to size, but longer nipples often are more
resistant to rounding off when the going gets tough. Â*Short nipples
offer more options for how to take up the slack in a freshly laced
wheel. Â*Long ones can work better with spokes that are a little too
short.

So you know, DT offers long nipples too.

http://www.nationaloutdoors.net/comp...T-Swiss-Extra-...

Chalo

Still no 10mm long nipples, why?

Because with lotsa rims the nipple won't protrude far enough to grab
with a spoke wrench. CXP-33 is a good example.

On Feb 2, 3:36Â*pm, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
On Feb 1, 2:04Â*pm, thirty-six wrote:



On Feb 1, 7:53Â*pm, Chalo wrote:

russellseaton wrote:

I am not fond of Sapim's nipples. Â*The ones that Dans Comp sends with
its Sapim spokes are very long and large. Â*Not small and elegant
nipples like DT. Â*Last wheels I built I used DT spokes ordered from
Starbike in Germany.

I don't think Danscomp sends Sapim nipples; the ones I used to get
with Sapim spokes from Thor USA were really nice short things with a
spherical surface on the heads. Â*They're better than DT nipples for
angled insertion (like with high hub flanges or small diameter
rims).

http://www.sapim.be/index.php?st=pro.../product10.htm

I build and repair lots of wheels with both long and short nipples,
and I'm more or less indifferent either way. Â*DT standard nipples are
sharply machined and true to size, but longer nipples often are more
resistant to rounding off when the going gets tough. Â*Short nipples
offer more options for how to take up the slack in a freshly laced
wheel. Â*Long ones can work better with spokes that are a little too
short.

So you know, DT offers long nipples too.

http://www.nationaloutdoors.net/comp...T-Swiss-Extra-....

Chalo

Still no 10mm long nipples, why?

Because with lotsa rims the nipple won't protrude far enough to grab
with a spoke wrench. CXP-33 is a good example.

The number of everyday flat top single wall rims far outnumber the
likes of Cxp-33. My eye prefers a small amount of nipple showing.
I'll guess the common available nipple lengths are due to automated
truing machines requiring a round to locate the nipple tool. With a
hand assembled and trued wheel there is simply no need for a
projection greater than the nipple flats. Actually just looked at my
front sprint wheel (with ferrules) and there are four or five odd
length nipples, all showing just the flats. I didn't notice these
oddities when building, so there certainly is no problem to them when
hand building, except prerhaps if you 'need' to use a plastic bodied
tool such as a Spokey.

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
On Feb 1, 11:22 am, Chalo wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

Chalo wrote:
Danscomp.com. That is, if you're content with Sapim 14ga ($.25 ea.)
or 14/15ga ($.40 ea.) spokes. They cut spokes to order, so they
always have the length you want.
In Europe the best touring and heavy duty wheels are built with Sapim
spokes, so I would say "highly desirable", rather than "content with"
which implies there is something better to aspire to.
I like Sapims. In the US of A, most folks who insist on a particular
kind of spoke specify DT Swiss rather than the totally satisfactory
equivalents from Sapim, Wheelsmith, or Marwi.

Sapims are a little softer than DTs (not that it seems to matter). I
even prefer the look of their less-shiny finish and visible butting.

Chalo

Problem with Sapim in the US is distribution, in that nobody
distributes them. KHS(not the bike but a small family run distributor)
occasionally has some but their invemntory is spotty and when they DO
have them, they are often only everyother size. Nobody distributes
Marwi, AFAIK. Wheelsmith are poor. I have seen more than a few fail,
in that they give up their strength when tensioning and stretch to the
point of failure. Tightening a nipple makes them longer/looser, not
tighter.

ditto that.
We prefer to have spokes shipped to us straight from the
factory which is faster and orders arrive 100% filled, which
is more than I can say for any USA distributor.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/2/2011 9:35 AM, Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
Wheelsmith are poor. I have seen more than a few fail,
in that they give up their strength when tensioning and stretch to the
point of failure. Tightening a nipple makes them longer/looser, not
tighter.

Older Wheelsmith spokes made in Montana, or newer Wheelsmith spokes made
in Milwaukee (after being purchased by Sun-Ringle)? The production
equipment is completely different, and the source wire may be different.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
On Feb 1, 2:04 pm, thirty-six wrote:

Still no 10mm long nipples, why?

Because with lotsa rims the nipple won't protrude far enough to grab
with a spoke wrench. CXP-33 is a good example.

That and better still the CXP30. Now that was a road rim with balls.

JS.

thirty-six wrote:
(snip)
My eye prefers a small amount of nipple showing.
(snip)
Sorry, couldn't resist.

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

Chalo wrote:

I like Sapims. *In the US of A, most folks who insist on a particular
kind of spoke specify DT Swiss rather than the totally satisfactory
equivalents from Sapim, Wheelsmith, or Marwi.

Problem with Sapim in the US is distribution, in that nobody
distributes them. KHS(not the bike but a small family run distributor)
occasionally has some but their invemntory is spotty and when they DO
have them, they are often only everyother size.

I get Sapim spokes from Dan's Competition and Thor USA.

Nobody distributes Marwi, AFAIK.

Somebody does, because my local BMX shop (which is also an online
retailer) sells lots of Marwi spokes.

Wheelsmith are poor. I have seen more than a few fail,

I saw some in the old days that broke at the transition between
diameters. I have seen no other spoke do that.

in that they give up their strength when tensioning and stretch to the
point of failure. Tightening a nipple makes them longer/looser, not
tighter.

I've observed that phenomenon in wheels that were so bent as to
require gross overtensioning of isolated spokes to true them. The
example that sticks in my mind was a wheel with 15/16ga spokes that
had no head markings, but which did have Wheelsmith-style abrupt
diameter transitions.

Most of my experience with Wheelsmith spokes has been with their
13/14ga single-butted spokes, which do not exhibit either of the
aforementioned problems. I don't know why I'd ever buy other kinds of
Wheelsmith spokes, since DT Swiss spokes are easier to get and cost
about the same. Sapim spokes are cheaper than either one-- I can get
them retail in exact quantities at Dan's Competition for less than the
wholesale box price of DTs.

Chalo

AMuzi wrote:

We prefer to have spokes shipped to us straight from the
factory which is faster and orders arrive 100% filled, which
is more than I can say for any USA distributor.

My main wholesaler delivers in under 24 hours (which is why it's my
main wholesaler).

Chalo

On 2/2/2011 10:14 PM, Chalo Colina wrote:
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

[...]
Wheelsmith are poor. I have seen more than a few fail,

I saw some in the old days that broke at the transition between
diameters. I have seen no other spoke do that.[...]

Those had the butting formed by grinding. With the purchase by
Sun-Ringle and move to Milwaukee, equipment for forming the butting by
swaging was obtained.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.