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The case for cycle lanes



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 28th 18, 03:17 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
jnugent
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Posts: 11,574
Default The case for cycle lanes

On 28/04/2018 10:09, Peter Keller wrote:
On 28/04/18 11:38, Simon Jester wrote:
On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 11:40:59 AM UTC+1, Peter Keller wrote:
On 27/04/18 05:31, Simon Jester wrote:
On Thursday, April 26, 2018 at 10:44:05 AM UTC+1, Peter Keller wrote:
On 26/04/18 02:43, Simon Jester wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DNNIB_PdaA

Maybe there is a case for well-designed bike lanes which actually lead
somewhere and connect to things but in practice this will happen very
slowly.
I am not sure how he rides bikes, but sure there are many inconsiderate
bicyclists. Just like there are many inconsiderate [insert flavour of
the month here].
In general I find roads and motorised traffic not much of a problem. But
then I do crazy things like being visible and predictable, signalling
intentions, stopping for red lights and pedestrians, giving way when
required, riding with the traffic and not against it, and other such
stupid things. Then drivers also do stupid things like give way to me,
give me room, give me a cheery wave (no doubt like they are humouring a
lunatic) and so forth.

Not all cyclists are as confident as you and I.

I have been a cycle commuter for 30 years and have no problem allowing motorists to share our roads but I would still rather have segregated cycle ways.


Fair enough.
I am just pointing out that it will not happen overnight.


It's all about attitude.

Why does this work in Germany

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRoG2HrYx8k

But we are told it would be suicide for UK cyclists.


Ahh yes that brings back memories ...
In Germany something like 12 percent of urban travel is made by bicycle.
In the UK I believe it is less than 2 percent.
Safety in numbers? German respect for law and order? It certainly was
very pleasant and practical using a bicycle in Germany.


12% sounds very high. It may be accurate for the Netherlands.

But I have noted in Germany (and, for that matter, in NL) that cyclists
behave properly and obey the law.

If only that were true in the UK (it certainly isn't). Perhaps cyclists
would not be hated as much as they are.
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  #12  
Old April 28th 18, 03:22 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
jnugent
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Posts: 11,574
Default The case for cycle lanes

On 28/04/2018 13:36, RJH wrote:

In Sheffield we're having every inch of road dug up and resurfaced. To
the best of my knowledge there won't be any change in provision for
cyclists. Or EVs, or indeed road flow-deign for that matter. In a city
that's gridlocked every rush hour.


That's a great shame, because although I have rarely visited Sheffield
(and the last time was more than twenty years ago), I would bet that
there is much road space wasted by being marked out as cycle lanes and
bus lanes (so-called, in either case).

A full re-surface would appear to be an ideal low-marginal-cost
opportinity to have undone all of that waste.

Perhaps Liverpool Mayor Joe Anderson should be called in as principal
consultant to Sheffield - and a lot of other places.
  #13  
Old April 28th 18, 06:30 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
TMS320
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Posts: 3,875
Default The case for cycle lanes

On 28/04/18 15:17, JNugent wrote:

But I have noted in Germany (and, for that matter, in NL) that cyclists
behave properly and obey the law.


When watching German holiday makers pedalling at Lake Garda, I gained no
such impression.

If only that were true in the UK (it certainly isn't). Perhaps cyclists
would not be hated as much as they are.


You have yet to take up my offer to meet up and point out the situation
as you believe it to be.
  #14  
Old April 28th 18, 06:32 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
TMS320
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Posts: 3,875
Default The case for cycle lanes

On 28/04/18 11:30, Simon Jester wrote:
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 10:13:58 AM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote:
On 28/04/18 00:38, Simon Jester wrote:

Why does this work in Germany

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRoG2HrYx8k

But we are told it would be suicide for UK cyclists.


There is a culture in the rest of Europe and USA completely missing
in Britain. To give way when turning. British authorities don't
help to do anything to change this when they have been setting
vehicle/pedestrian phases on traffic lights incorrectly and
painting give way lines on residential roads in the wrong place for
several decades.

Also, in other places, if a collision between motor and cycle
takes place in a cycle lane, the driver is bound to be at fault.
Here the only point of a cycle lane is to allow a bureaucrat to go
home with a warm fuzzy feeling after ticking a "sustainable
transport" box.


Watching that video again it is all about mutual respect rather than
them and us. They were all road users, the mode of transport did not
matter. Notice at 1:27 where the cyclist waves at the motorist to say
go ahead even though we have priority.


The wave was unnecessary but I don't think the manoeuvre itself is
particularly unusual. I could probably have got moving quicker than the
car and asserted position by merit (similar to a 2 to 1 lane merge) but
in an "equal" situation I usually prefer drivers to get on with it and
get out of the way rather than sit and dither.

Using the road is always about giving a bit here, taking a bit there,
being assertive, being meek, being predictable, being confusing,
following the book but occasionally not: a skill is about knowing which
to do.

Some people get it, some seem unable to set a fair balance. Some, like
Nugent, seem to want everybody to behave as though they're following a
flow chart.

We need to change social attitudes towards cycling in this country.
Lycra Warriors and Mr Pounders not not help.


It is true that there are a number of vociferous cycle haters (behind
the anonymity of the internet) but I don't think the lack of take up is
the same as a general social attitude problem with cycling. I also don't
know what a "lycra warrior" is; I have never encountered anybody in
lycra that meets such a description.

My view remains that part of the problem is officialdom and the rules
governing junction design. It's mainly about motor/pedestrian but it has
knock on effects.
  #15  
Old April 28th 18, 07:23 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
[email protected]
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Posts: 489
Default The case for cycle lanes

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 6:30:56 PM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote:


When watching German holiday makers pedalling at Lake Garda, I gained no
such impression.


Germans are like that everywhere.
I was in Chisinau, Moldova and this fat German took command of the TV channels.
Russians and Germans have MONEY and like to show it off amongst the plebs of Europe. Only in Poland are they muted, in relative terms.

Even in Netherlands they are welcomed as they have MONEY.

  #16  
Old April 28th 18, 09:08 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
jnugent
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Posts: 11,574
Default The case for cycle lanes

On 28/04/2018 18:30, TMS320 wrote:
On 28/04/18 15:17, JNugent wrote:

But I have noted in Germany (and, for that matter, in NL) that
cyclists behave properly and obey the law.


When watching German holiday makers pedalling at Lake Garda, I gained no
such impression.


In which German Land is Garda?

If only that were true in the UK (it certainly isn't). Perhaps
cyclists would not be hated as much as they are.


You have yet to take up my offer to meet up and point out the situation
as you believe it to be.


How true.
  #17  
Old April 28th 18, 09:27 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
MrCheerful
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Posts: 4,757
Default The case for cycle lanes

On 28/04/2018 21:08, JNugent wrote:
On 28/04/2018 18:30, TMS320 wrote:
On 28/04/18 15:17, JNugent wrote:

But I have noted in Germany (and, for that matter, in NL) that
cyclists behave properly and obey the law.


When watching German holiday makers pedalling at Lake Garda, I gained
no such impression.


In which German Land is Garda?

If only that were true in the UK (it certainly isn't). Perhaps
cyclists would not be hated as much as they are.


You have yet to take up my offer to meet up and point out the
situation as you believe it to be.


How true.


I read the other day that cyclist deaths in the NL now exceed the number
of car occupant deaths. Over 200 of each. The rise is attributed to the
use of e-bikes by older riders.
  #18  
Old April 28th 18, 09:40 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
[email protected]
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Posts: 489
Default The case for cycle lanes

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 6:32:21 PM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote:
On 28/04/18 11:30, Simon Jester wrote:
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 10:13:58 AM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote:
On 28/04/18 00:38, Simon Jester wrote:



My view remains that part of the problem is officialdom and the rules
governing junction design. It's mainly about motor/pedestrian but it has
knock on effects.


What is wrong with the junction design here?

QUOTE: Maybe, how about, people started following the rules of the road and stopped selfishly blocking box junctions, which as the photo above shows, is very clearly marked (apart from where two cars are queuing on it!).

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news...rivers-1510618
  #19  
Old April 29th 18, 10:33 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
TMS320
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Posts: 3,875
Default The case for cycle lanes

On 28/04/18 21:08, JNugent wrote:
On 28/04/2018 18:30, TMS320 wrote:
On 28/04/18 15:17, JNugent wrote:

But I have noted in Germany (and, for that matter, in NL) that
cyclists behave properly and obey the law.


When watching German holiday makers pedalling at Lake Garda, I gained
no such impression.


In which German Land is Garda?


Hmmm. German holiday makers are people that normally live in Germany. It
is remarkable that you can't make the connection.

If only that were true in the UK (it certainly isn't). Perhaps
cyclists would not be hated as much as they are.


You have yet to take up my offer to meet up and point out the
situation as you believe it to be.


How true.


You have this idyllic notion that, in law, people are innocent until
proven guilty. You want to have it both ways.
  #20  
Old April 29th 18, 10:44 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Peter Keller[_3_]
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Posts: 8,736
Default The case for cycle lanes

On 29/04/18 02:17, JNugent wrote:
On 28/04/2018 10:09, Peter Keller wrote:
On 28/04/18 11:38, Simon Jester wrote:
On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 11:40:59 AM UTC+1, Peter Keller wrote:
On 27/04/18 05:31, Simon Jester wrote:
On Thursday, April 26, 2018 at 10:44:05 AM UTC+1, Peter Keller wrote:
On 26/04/18 02:43, Simon Jester wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DNNIB_PdaA

Maybe there is a case for well-designed bike lanes which actually
lead
somewhere and connect to things but in practice this will happen very
slowly.
I am not sure how he rides bikes, but sure there are many
inconsiderate
bicyclists. Just like there are many inconsiderate [insert flavour of
the month here].
In general I find roads and motorised traffic not much of a
problem. But
then I do crazy things like being visible and predictable, signalling
intentions, stopping for red lights and pedestrians, giving way when
required, riding with the traffic and not against it, and other such
stupid things. Then drivers also do stupid things like give way to
me,
give me room, give me a cheery wave (no doubt like they are
humouring a
lunatic) and so forth.

Not all cyclists are as confident as you and I.

I have been a cycle commuter for 30 years and have no problem
allowing motorists to share our roads but I would still rather have
segregated cycle ways.


Fair enough.
I am just pointing out that it will not happen overnight.

It's all about attitude.

Why does this work in Germany

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRoG2HrYx8k

But we are told it would be suicide for UK cyclists.


Ahh yes that brings back memories ...
In Germany something like 12 percent of urban travel is made by bicycle.
In the UK I believe it is less than 2 percent.
Safety in numbers? German respect for law and order? It certainly was
very pleasant and practical using a bicycle in Germany.


12% sounds very high. It may be accurate for the Netherlands.



http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs...terneurope.pdf

I was mistaken.
Germany about 10 percent.
Netherlands about 26 percent.
UK about 2 percent.

I lived in Münster (Westfalen) which is swamped by bicycles. They even
had to build a big bicycle parking building near the railway station.
 




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