Can't Use Helmets in the Sun????

Peter Clinch writes:

Hadron Quark wrote:

Noone rides bikes in the UK.

I saw several of these non-existent people this morning. Cycle use
has been booming in London since the congestion charge was introduced.
Last I heard London was part of the UK...

In the netherlands they have flat cycle
paths everywhere and everyone cycles.

The perception of fietspads being /everywhere/ is actually false:
there are plenty of places in NL where cyclists and motorists share
road space.

But why let mere facts get in the way of a good argument?

Your inability to except a generalization is almost laughable.

So you dont agree that cycling facilities and terrain in Hollad are
better and flatter than most other places?

As a %, you disagree that in germany, holland etc a lot more cycle than
in the UK?

Come off it : you sound ridiculous.

Hadron Quark wrote:

Who has said cycling is much more dangerous? I thought this thread
was about whether a helemt would protect one. Why are you constantly
shifting to discussing whether walking is more dangerous than cycling
(which it clearly isnt reagardless of how many ridiculous statistics
you spout).

Because if you believe helmets work and the risks of cycling necessitate
wearing one then there is a greater necessity to wear one walking. If
you don't believe either then you do what I do and don't wear one while
walking or cycling.


--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Peter Clinch writes:

Hadron Quark wrote:

Who has said cycling is much more dangerous?

If it /isn't/ then why does it merit special head protection?


Snore. Who said it does? YOu seem unable to differentiate between
someone accepting that a helmet is better than no helmet and someone who
supports a MHL.

btw, nice rearrangement again : you will know that I was pointing out
that the comparison game was not being played.

It is you who keeps bringing up the "more than" "less than" arguments
for some reason : most posters in this thread dont care about whether a
helmet would protect one when popping to the garden shed for the shears.

Peter Clinch wrote:

(which it clearly isnt reagardless of how many ridiculous statistics
you spout).

So how do all those people end up with injuries which they collect at a
higher rate per unit distance than cyclists?


Perhaps that's why our hospitals are overcrowded in the UK - the beds
are filled by fictitious people who don't really exist but annoyingly
turn up in the admissions records. Now if we could just get the doctors
and nurses to understand these people don't exist and their beds are
really empty we could solve the hospital bed problem in an instant.
Over to you Pete, you work in a hospital. ;-)

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Hadron Quark wrote:


As a %, you disagree that in germany, holland etc a lot more cycle than
in the UK?


Yes the percentage is greater and do you think that is anything to do
with it being seen as a normal safe activity that virtually no-one
thinks requires the protection of a helmet. In the days when I used to
wear a helmet and my daughters stayed with Dutch families on a school
exchange, the Dutch parents couldn't understand why on earth we thought
our children needed the protection of a helmet to go cycling. Here in
the UK many parents think anyone that lets their child cycle is
irresponsibly endangering their child, criminally so if they cycle
without a helmet. And you wonder why more Dutch cycle.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Hadron Quark wrote:

Snore. Who said it does? YOu seem unable to differentiate between
someone accepting that a helmet is better than no helmet and someone who
supports a MHL.

But if a helmet being better than no helmet is an issue then it is
because the wearer thinks s/he is in particular danger worthy of wearing it.
I ma safer from head injury in my kitchen if I wear a helmet. I accept
that. But I (and pretty much nobody else) wears a helmet to protect
themselves against banging their heads on open cupboards. Why not? The
overall risk is not one that merits it. For a different result on a
cycle, one must be coming to different conclusions about the risk level.
While I understand that people do come to different conclusions that
does not make them right. And indeed it is the case that if you look at
the big picture it turns out they are basically wrong.

btw, nice rearrangement again : you will know that I was pointing out
that the comparison game was not being played.

You persist in ignoring the point that comparisons are actually central
to risk analysis and how we deal with risk. They're not.

It is you who keeps bringing up the "more than" "less than" arguments
for some reason : most posters in this thread dont care about whether a
helmet would protect one when popping to the garden shed for the shears.

And this is an illustration of how their thinking is inconsistent. It
shouldn't be a case of "cycling needs a helmet, gardening doesn't,
because one uses a bike and the other doesn't", it *should* be "such and
such merits a helmet while this other doesn't because such and such
carries considerably more danger of a head injury than this other". The
important differential is the nature of the risk, /not/ that one happens
to have people selling helmets for it.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 01:49:45 GMT, "Sorni"
wrote:

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 17:52:18 -0700, "GaryG"
wrote:

Not where I ride....the vast majority of cyclists I see on the west
coast and the mountain west are wearing helmets (well, except for
the "cyclists" who ride Wally-World bikes balancing a case of beer
on the handlebars with a cigarette dangling between their lips).

Could you clarify this? Of all people you see riding bikes --
regardless of what they ride/smoke/etc -- do the vast majority wear
helmets? If so, that's interesting.

Where I live -- New York City -- it's not clear to me what the
situation is. I can't easily get a fix on it -- I'd guess it's abut
half but I could be way off -- it could easily be as little as a
quarter wear helmets. Or it might be a bit more than half.

Gary's comment sure rings true for Southern California. (In fact, I think I
wrote something quite similar a few days ago.)

Other than people on "comfort" bikes riding the wrong way on sidewalks, the
vast majority of cyclists I see are helmeted. I'd say at least 80% on the
road; close to 100% off-road.

It's noteworthy that in your "vast majority" comments both you and
Gary choose to exclude certain cyclists.

It's still quite unusual to see someone on a true "road bike" without a
helmet. (Once every...two weeks maybe.)

This suggests to me that at least part of wearing a helmet is from
believing it's what serious cyclists wear.

Which reminds me -- you never answered the question about what you
would do if you had a nice place to ride and no helmet available.

JT


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On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 02:42:24 GMT, "Cathy Kearns"
wrote:

I'd say around the SF peninsula, about 90% of the people wearing lycra and
riding road bikes for recreation or sport wear helmets. About 15% of the
adults wearing regular clothes and riding bikes to get to work or for
errands wear helmets.

Yeah, it's vaguely like this in NYC. But hard to know how much of
each sort of cyclist there are. And in the working cyclist group
(people riding as part of their job) it's about zero of food delivery
people wear helmets, and around half of messengers do.

JT

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On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 11:26:21 +0200, Hadron Quark
wrote:

Tony Raven writes:

Jay Beattie wrote:
I also have a shower
helmet, a walking helmet, a car helmet -- but I only wear those to ****
off Frank and Tony.

You being consistent would not **** me off at all. And the ones that
think cycling is so much more dangerous than any other every day
activity that it needs special protective clothing mainly bemuse me
except when they start campaigning to enforce their choice on others.

Who has said cycling is much more dangerous? I thought this thread was
about whether a helemt would protect one. Why are you constantly
shifting to discussing whether walking is more dangerous than cycling

Because it points out major logical flaws on the part of strong helmet
proponets. If a strong helmet proponent doesn't use a helmet in other
similarly safe activities it proobably means 1 of 2 things:
1 They believe cycling is more dangeous than those other activities
2 They are choosing to wear a helmet for some "reason" other than the
facts.

The latter is OK if we're honest about it. If you say "Look, I know
the odds of it helping prevent a serious injury are remote, but I've
worn it all my life and my gut wants me to wear it" I've got no
problem with that. Or "My husband won't let me ride without it and
it's not worth arguing with him about." Or "There is a law in one
place where I ride that requires it." Fine.

But insofar as those of us in this group are talking publicly about
our behaviour and seriving as opinion leaders, to say "I always wear a
helmet on the road" without at least recognizing the weakness of
rationale for that behaviour is lame and even deceptive.

JT

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In article ,
"Sorni" wrote:

SNIP

Frank, who puts down illiterate waitresses as having no value (or certainly
less than his own), suddenly aligns himself with the beer-toting butt-toking
DUI wrong way riders on sidewalks! What a man of the people! LOL

Best response yet,Sorni!!

HAND
Ride a Bike
...or get bent