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Carlton Reid on QR safety



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 4th 06, 12:31 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike
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Default Carlton Reid on QR safety

Carlton Reid has a puff piece about a new "Secure QR system" on bikebiz:
http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=6427

While promoting this new mechanism as "safer" than the existing system,
he also insists that "industry experts say QRs are safe, when used
correctly".

This assertion is backed up with a quote from "industry expert" Bob
Burns (actually Trek's *lawyer*), which is nothing more than a
boilerplate denial dating to a few years ago when the QR/disk issue
first surfaced.

Strangely, alongside this there is no space in his article for these
quotes from people who actually have some relevant engineering and
technical experience:

---
Chris Juden, Technical officer, CTC:
"It's not just scaremongering, but all hangs together and makes
perfect sense. In fact I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it before."

"changes must be made to the way disk brakes and front wheels are
attached to forks"

Jobst Brandt, author, "The Bicycle Wheel":
"The more I see on this the more I find the defense of the status quo
stranger than fiction. Why are writers trying to say that it can't
happen? What motivates writers to claim that disc brakes as currently
offered are not a hazard?

The mechanism has been clearly stated, the forces have been identified
in magnitude and direction, and credible descriptions of failures have
been presented. What's going on here! There is no easter bunny.
Believe it!"

John Forester, author, "Effective Cycling":
"All that I can say is gross negligence."

Unnamed Marzocchi Tech Support:
"It is recommended that an 8" rotor is not used on a standard axle fork
because the forces exerted on the wheel can potentially pull the axle
out of the dropouts."

Brant Richards, On-One:
"From the next batch, our rigid forks will have dropouts which are
angled forward at 45degrees or thereabouts.

This is because when I was coming home, and pulling a stoppy outside my
driveway, I kept finding the front wheel shifted in the dropout."

Dave Gray, Surly:
"You are correct. I've noticed the problem on my Karate Monkey fork."

Ben Cooper, Kinetics, describing his experiment:
"Conclusion: From the above, there seems to be an effect from the disc
brake which causes the quick release to loosen."
---


And even more strangely, although he mentions the ongoing Walmart case
concerning children's bikes, and refers repeatedly to user error, he
also didn't find space to mention the recent out of court settlement in
which a manufacturer paid off an (experienced adult) rider who was
seriously injured by a front wheel ejection on a disk+QR fork.


James
--
James Annan
see web pages for email
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/
http://julesandjames.blogspot.com/
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  #2  
Old February 4th 06, 02:50 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike
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Default Carlton Reid on QR safety

Those of us who have seen your prior postings about the issue of disc
brake ejections are fully aware of your position on the matter. Is it
possible for you to accept the fact that for the majority of the
readers, the evidence thus far published is not persuasive that there
is a serious problem here which is not related to user error? Merely
casting aspersions on an announcement because it contains a statement
of fact by an attorney (which no one represented as anything but what
it was) is not saying much about the subject.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
  #3  
Old February 4th 06, 02:55 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike
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Default Carlton Reid on QR safety


Werehatrack wrote:
Those of us who have seen your prior postings about the issue of disc
brake ejections are fully aware of your position on the matter. Is it
possible for you to accept the fact that for the majority of the
readers, the evidence thus far published is not persuasive that there
is a serious problem here which is not related to user error?


Why do you claim to speak for the majority of readers, most of whom
have expressed no public opinion on the matter?

...d

  #4  
Old February 4th 06, 03:12 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike
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Default Carlton Reid on QR safety

Werehatrack wrote:

Those of us who have seen your prior postings about the issue of disc
brake ejections are fully aware of your position on the matter.


However, those who read Carlton's article on Bikebiz might think it safe
to draw the conclusion that "industry experts say QRs are safe, when
used correctly", even though numerous industry experts have quite
clearly expressed the contrary view.

They will also not know that one case was recently settled in favour of
the rider.

James
--
James Annan
see web pages for email
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/
http://julesandjames.blogspot.com/
  #5  
Old February 4th 06, 04:54 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike
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Default Carlton Reid on QR safety

Werehatrack writes:

Those of us who have seen your prior postings about the issue of
disc brake ejections are fully aware of your position on the matter.
Is it possible for you to accept the fact that for the majority of
the readers, the evidence thus far published is not persuasive that
there is a serious problem here which is not related to user error?


All that would prove is that the majority of readers lack an adequate
understanding of science. Given how weak science education is in the
US, this is not a surprise.

The situation with disk brakes is very simple. It is a faulty design
that poses a danger to the people who use disk brakes. Current disk
brake designs cause an ejection force that canpush the front wheel out
of the dropout. There is no way for that the be refuted, although
once again the strange phenomenon of people defending bad design will
no doubt rear its head in this thread.
  #6  
Old February 4th 06, 04:56 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike
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Default Carlton Reid on QR safety

James Annan writes:

Werehatrack wrote:

Those of us who have seen your prior postings about the issue of
disc brake ejections are fully aware of your position on the
matter.


However, those who read Carlton's article on Bikebiz might think it
safe to draw the conclusion that "industry experts say QRs are safe,
when used correctly", even though numerous industry experts have
quite clearly expressed the contrary view.


Don't appeal to authority. Just state the facts, which are simple and
straightforward.
  #7  
Old February 4th 06, 07:10 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike
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Default Carlton Reid on QR safety

James Annan wrote:
Werehatrack wrote:

Those of us who have seen your prior postings about the issue of disc
brake ejections are fully aware of your position on the matter.



However, those who read Carlton's article on Bikebiz might think it safe
to draw the conclusion that "industry experts say QRs are safe, when
used correctly", even though numerous industry experts have quite
clearly expressed the contrary view.

They will also not know that one case was recently settled in favour of
the rider.

James


Out of court settlements almost always include a statement that the
plantiff is not admitting liability. It is often less costly to pay a
small settlement than it is to defend the claim, particularly if the
jurisdiction is known to be plaintiff-favorable.
  #8  
Old February 4th 06, 07:31 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike
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Default Carlton Reid on QR safety

Tim McNamara writes:

Those of us who have seen your prior postings about the issue of
disc brake ejections are fully aware of your position on the
matter. Is it possible for you to accept the fact that for the
majority of the readers, the evidence thus far published is not
persuasive that there is a serious problem here which is not
related to user error?


All that would prove is that the majority of readers lack an
adequate understanding of science. Given how weak science education
is in the US, this is not a surprise.


The situation with disk brakes is very simple. It is a faulty
design that poses a danger to the people who use disk brakes.
Current disk brake designs cause an ejection force that can push the
front wheel out of the dropout. There is no way for that the be
refuted, although once again the strange phenomenon of people
defending bad design will no doubt rear its head in this thread.


Yes. So why is this kind response to technical failures so common, be
that valve stem separation, spoke failures, crank failures, stem
failures and many more. They seem so personal and vehement that one
would guess that the writers were the manufacturers themselves. I
sense a strong apologists tone in many of these.

Jobst Brandt
  #9  
Old February 4th 06, 09:03 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike
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Default Carlton Reid on QR safety


"David Martin" wrote in message
oups.com...

Werehatrack wrote:
Those of us who have seen your prior postings about the issue of disc
brake ejections are fully aware of your position on the matter. Is it
possible for you to accept the fact that for the majority of the
readers, the evidence thus far published is not persuasive that there
is a serious problem here which is not related to user error?


Why do you claim to speak for the majority of readers, most of whom
have expressed no public opinion on the matter?

..d

Does the fact that the majority of people have expressed no public opinion
(read; interest) speak volumes as to the severity of the problem? Do YOU
know the relevant statistics to say that this is a major problem or design
flaw?

Life is inherently risky and I for one would rather check my qr's before a
ride and have disk brakes than try to do what I do with rim brakes.

Just my 2p

Andy H


  #10  
Old February 4th 06, 10:20 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,rec.bicycles.tech,alt.mountain-bike
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Default Carlton Reid on QR safety

Andy H wrote:
Does the fact that the majority of people have expressed no public opinion
(read; interest)


Why do you read that? I have hitherto expressed no public opinion.
I've read James' webpages on the subject and found his hypothesis
interesting and convincing; I would have liked to investigate the QR
vibrational loosening in more detail, but as I neither sell, use,
maintain, nor have any access to disk brakes or QR axles, I could add
nothing useful to the debate.

R.
 




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