For Frank Krygowski's helmet files

On Jun 13, 11:54*am, wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 09:44:18 -0700 (PDT), Jay Beattie





wrote:
On Jun 13, 6:28*am, Tom Sherman °_°
wrote:
aka Carl Fogel wrote:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_12573813

We can all agree that it's a nice photo of two volunteers helping a
disabled child enjoy a hand-cranked tricycle.

But *. . .

The happy child couldn't fall and hit his head unless one of the two
volunteers on either side decided to tip his tricycle over.[...]

Maybe the child rides in motor vehicles, gardens, takes baths and
participates in other high head injury risk activities.

Or as stated above, maybe he has a seizure disorder? *Or maybe there
is a law in the state requiring all children under the age of 16 to
wear a helmet, and they are following the law? *Or maybe the
organizers are required by their insurance companies to have
participants wear helmets? Or maybe they are just super cautious
because these kids are already so disabled that dropping them on their
heads while doing a transfer would cause them great discomfort? -- Jay
Beattie.

Dear Jay,

Sorry, no bicycle helmet laws in Colorado.

And the two kids in the background are wearing helmets in the parking
lot with no helpers around.

Which suggests to me that there is a requirement imposed by the
program and probably the program's liability insurers.

But helmets are given away with bicycles, along with training wheels,
in Colorado:
*http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_12481734

Good deal. Free helmets. -- Jay Beattie.

Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 14:14:15 -0700 (PDT), "Peter S."
wrote:

I severely
dislike how helmet haters ignores simple facts that helmets do reduce
head injuries and deaths among cyclists.

I severely dislike how people how urge helmet use on bikes are so
dismissive of the value of helmets in cars.

What about the value of helmets for pedestrians, gardeners, bathers,
stair users, etc?

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On Jun 13, 2:23*pm, Tom Sherman °_°
wrote:
Peter S.??? wrote:
[...]
I have no problem with people riding without helmet, but I severely
dislike how helmet haters ignores simple facts that helmets do reduce
head injuries and deaths among cyclists.[...]

Those "facts" are highly disputable, and that has been discussed here
until the deceased equine complained about the excessive flagellation.

--

By my calculations, I have personally avoided 21.3 stitches in my head
by wearing a helmet -- based on extrapolating the wound in my face
that stopped at the helmet line. But then again, I might have done
some magical kung-fu wire-work spin through the air and avoided all
injury if I had not said to myself while falling "gee, I'm wearing a
helmet and can safely bounce on my head. and face" Or maybe I would
not have "risk compensated" by riding my bike on a day with undetected
black ice . . . or maybe my wounds were merely psychosomatic and part
of a mass hysterical response promoted by the giant helmet
conspiracy. Oooooh, evil helmet conspiracy -- entrapping the heads of
America! -- Jay Beattie.

On 13 Jun., 17:59, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jun 13, 8:29 am, "Peter S." wrote:

I once had a student who suffered a grand mal seizure - a truly
frightening experience for me - but he never wore a helmet at school,
AFAIK.

Seizures may look strange, but people can't feel anything nor remember
anything about the attack.
The vast majority of non-handicapped people with epilepsy wouldn't
benefit much from a helmet when having grand mal seizures or absence
seizures. Most people just slump to the ground when the seizures
comes. A tiny minority however always keel over in such a way that
they smack their head into the ground when having seizures. If they
have frequent seizures they may greatly benefit from a helmet.
Some handicapped epileptics may have such severe, frequent and
difficult to treat epileptic seizures, that head traumas are to be
avoided at all costs, and that seizures must be treated aggressively
with drugs. Helmet use may in some cases be required to avoid even
minor head traumas.

Perhaps the reason bike helmets are promoted so heavily is that people
expect a great many seizures among bicyclists?

It is the other way around; without helmets, cyclist increases their
risk of getting brain traumas, and brain traumas often makes the
victim an epileptic.

--
Regards

On Jun 13, 2:25*pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:
"Peter S." wrote in message

...

On 13 Jun., 08:11, wrote:

Don't underestimate the power of an epileptic attack; they can snap
bones if the seizure patient is restrained, tipping over a tricycle
during a seizure can be done if the attack is severe enough.
Lots of handicaps are associated with brain damage that again is
associated with epilepsy. Epileptics really should avoid even minor
brain concussions, and since seizures or spastic attacks comes without
any warning, it is understandably that the organizers issued a
"everybody must wear a helmet" order.

#1: If indeed this poor kid suffers from sudden uncontrollable and
frequent epileptic attacks, or simply has severe motor or balance
issues, the helmet is likely part of his normal routine, and has nothing
to do with riding the trike. He's possibly more likely to injure himself
on his feet than on the trike.

#2: Epileptics play football, LaCrosse and many other hard-contact
sports in which "even minor brain concussions" could certainly happen,
and yet it's not seen as an issue. Please review this -http://www.epilepsy.com/info/teens_gen_sportsbefore making any such
claims.

#3: Epileptic seizures are typically (for many, almost always) preceded
by something called an "aura." It is not correct to say that seizures
come "without any warning." It may not allow enough time to safely
disengage from whatever one is doing, but there is often a warning.

There are a huge number of people with epilepsy, and it's likely you
know some and aren't aware of it. Most are fortunate to lead fairly
normal lives, although unless their seizures have been completely under
control for a given amount of time, you won't find them driving a car.

The kid is undoubtedly wearing a helmet because it is required by the
program and its liability insurers -- its just like you require people
who test ride your bikes to wear helmets (don't you?).

There are plenty of kids, however, who wear seizure helmets. I see
them at Doernbecher Children's Hospital while I'm sipping coffee at
the Starbucks, waiting for my wife to get her brain batteries changed.
They have status epilepticus or CP or some other condition that
differentiates them from the "normal" epileptic. They typically wear
hockey like helmets and not bike helmets.

On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 14:14:15 -0700 (PDT), "Peter S."
wrote:

On 13 Jun., 21:25, Tim McNamara wrote:

As a comparison, hundreds of thousands of Danes without helmets riding
in urban traffic every day:

Helmet use in Denmark is sharply rising these years. Good thing too,
since helmet use is proven to reduce head injuries and deaths (see TØI
rapport 572/2002)
Yeah, I know, helmets haters are in denial about this, so you will
probably ignore this too, I don't care.

http://www.copenhagencyclechic.com/

without an epidemic of brain injuries. Maybe the Danes just have
innately better balance than Americans. BTW, scroll down to the fourth
photo in the 11 June entry. Now that's a way to market bicycling.

Even in a small country like Denmark, bicycle related head injuries
are measured in their thousands. (6500 head traumas, of these, 1200
were considered serious; average numbers from 2000-2004 as reported
from hospitals).

I have no problem with people riding without helmet, but I severely
dislike how helmet haters ignores simple facts that helmets do reduce
head injuries and deaths among cyclists. I have this strong suspicion
that helmet haters have this hidden agenda, that by claiming that
helmets doesn't work, they can prevent mandatory helmet laws. This of
course is a totally wrong political tactic. By outright denying simple
facts, helmet haters marginalizes themselves as kooks. It is also a
looser tactic to only have a negative message; the ordinary voter may
very well support mandatory bicycle helmets because, if helmets works,
then lives will be saved, and if helmets doesn't work, then no harm
was done in making the helmets mandatory.
In short, helmet haters are a political liability for us that opposes
mandatory helmet laws.

Dear Peter,

Yes, there are head injuries in Denmark. They include bicyclists.

No, there are no whole-population studies showing any significant
effect on serious head injuries when there is a massive increase in
bicycle riders wearing helmets.

In fact, looking at the injury rates on a graph, no one could guess
when helmet use went from ~60% to ~100% in New Zealand:

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk:8080...ElemFormat=gif
or http://tinyurl.com/mqjwvg

More details he

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk:8080...s?OpenDocument

In other words, the claimed effect has never been demonstrated in the
large populations that helmets are supposed to protect against serious
injury and death.

If a drug company claimed that Helmetol had a significant effect on
the basis of similar results, who would buy the drug?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 13:31:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter S."
wrote:

On 13 Jun., 20:50, wrote:

But what about the other two helmeted kids in the background on
tricycles? No helpers, but helmets in a parking lot.

Their handicap is probably much smaller than the kid in the front,
perhaps they merely vision impaired spastics that can't use their
legs.
Anyway, with any random group of handicapped kids, you will find that
a lot of them will have severe balance problems, body coordination
problems, brain disorders like epilepsy etc. It probably makes sense
for a lot of the kids to wear helmets for extraordinary activities
like that sport event.

And what about these happy children in another recent Denver post
article?
http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_12481734

There's no hint in the article that they're suffering from any
problems whatsoever. They're just kids riding bicycles with training
wheels and helmets.

The training wheels are a shame. They don't learn to ride properly
with those contraptions on.

Dear Peter,

Extraordinary activities?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 16:33:57 -0500, Tom Sherman °_°
wrote:

Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 14:14:15 -0700 (PDT), "Peter S."
wrote:

I severely
dislike how helmet haters ignores simple facts that helmets do reduce
head injuries and deaths among cyclists.

I severely dislike how people how urge helmet use on bikes are so
dismissive of the value of helmets in cars.

What about the value of helmets for pedestrians, gardeners, bathers,
stair users, etc?

Most of those too.

"Jay Beattie" wrote in message
...
On Jun 13, 2:25 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:
"Peter S." wrote in message

...

On 13 Jun., 08:11, wrote:

Don't underestimate the power of an epileptic attack; they can snap
bones if the seizure patient is restrained, tipping over a tricycle
during a seizure can be done if the attack is severe enough.
Lots of handicaps are associated with brain damage that again is
associated with epilepsy. Epileptics really should avoid even minor
brain concussions, and since seizures or spastic attacks comes
without
any warning, it is understandably that the organizers issued a
"everybody must wear a helmet" order.

#1: If indeed this poor kid suffers from sudden uncontrollable and
frequent epileptic attacks, or simply has severe motor or balance
issues, the helmet is likely part of his normal routine, and has
nothing
to do with riding the trike. He's possibly more likely to injure
himself
on his feet than on the trike.

#2: Epileptics play football, LaCrosse and many other hard-contact
sports in which "even minor brain concussions" could certainly happen,
and yet it's not seen as an issue. Please review
this -http://www.epilepsy.com/info/teens_gen_sportsbefore making any
such
claims.

#3: Epileptic seizures are typically (for many, almost always)
preceded
by something called an "aura." It is not correct to say that seizures
come "without any warning." It may not allow enough time to safely
disengage from whatever one is doing, but there is often a warning.

There are a huge number of people with epilepsy, and it's likely you
know some and aren't aware of it. Most are fortunate to lead fairly
normal lives, although unless their seizures have been completely
under
control for a given amount of time, you won't find them driving a car.
==========
The kid is undoubtedly wearing a helmet because it is required by the
program and its liability insurers -- its just like you require people
who test ride your bikes to wear helmets (don't you?).

There are plenty of kids, however, who wear seizure helmets. I see
them at Doernbecher Children's Hospital while I'm sipping coffee at
the Starbucks, waiting for my wife to get her brain batteries changed.
They have status epilepticus or CP or some other condition that
differentiates them from the "normal" epileptic. They typically wear
hockey like helmets and not bike helmets.
==========

Right, I don't debate that, or the need. People with frequent seizures
or motor disorders need protection from falls.

My point is that being an epileptic doesn't mean that a minor (or major,
for that matter) concussion is any more or less dangerous than to anyone
else. And also that, as you pointed out yourself, the helmets are used
for general day-to-day activity, not just for riding a bike or whatever.
A fall in the bathroom, without someone around to notice, could be far
more dangerous than something out on the road or whatever.

And yes, we require helmets for test rides, but we don't claim it's for
insurance. It's not, and a case could be made that we actually increase
our liability by requiring them, because we might be giving people the
idea that they're "safe" out there when in fact the helmet can only
protect them from a limited number of things. It's just the best we can
do and it's our own feeling that it's a good idea to wear one. My turf,
my rules. But out on the road, I'm dead-set against mandatory helmet
laws for cyclists of any age, even though I'd never leave on a ride
without one.

Confused? :-)

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

On 13 Jun., 23:25, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:

#2: Epileptics play football, LaCrosse and many other hard-contact
sports in which "even minor brain concussions" could certainly happen,
and yet it's not seen as an issue. Please review this -http://www.epilepsy.com/info/teens_gen_sportsbefore making any such
claims.

I wasn't talking about normal people who just happens to have
epilepsy, but of handicapped people, especially kids, like the one in
the picture. Their epilepsy can be much more problematic since it is
often associated with brain damage, or because their epilepsy is much
more severe and harder to treat than normal. Some of them are really
so severely affected, that even minor brain concussions should be
avoided. Wearing a helmet isn't that unusual for handicapped children
with severe epilepsy.
Epilepsy is a rather broad spectrum, but a lot of epileptics can live
totally normal lives including participating in sport. But as the link
says:
"People with epilepsy can learn to ride and enjoy bicycles, however.
Because most serious bicycle injuries involve the head, everyone who
rides a bicycle should wear a helmet. "
Lots of sports are unproblematic for people with epilepsy, but I think
it is advisably for the epileptic to consult their doctor/neurologist
before starting on one.

#3: Epileptic seizures are typically (for many, almost always) preceded
by something called an "aura." It is not correct to say that seizures
come "without any warning." It may not allow enough time to safely
disengage from whatever one is doing, but there is often a warning.

Aura _is_ an epileptic attack, usually a simple focal attack that
gives certain weird feelings. Aura may give a warning that general
seizure is under way, but the person feeling the aura is already
having an epileptic attack. People having aura attacks therefore often
behave in weird ways. Only certain epilepsy types may have aura.
Absence attacks eg. comes without warning.

There are a huge number of people with epilepsy, and it's likely you
know some and aren't aware of it. Most are fortunate to lead fairly
normal lives, although unless their seizures have been completely under
control for a given amount of time, you won't find them driving a car.

I know that, but there is also a huge number of mentally handicapped
people with epilepsy, often living in institutions. Sometimes they are
born with the brain injuries, sometimes they are traffic accident
victims. They are epileptics too, but are often forgotten when people
talk about epilepsy.

--
Regards