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Not much needed in a "Be Seen" light



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 14th 14, 06:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Not much needed in a "Be Seen" light

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, October 13, 2014 5:28:01 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:

just for fun I removed the solar charger from a malfunctioning
lawn light that looks like one of those old round Union
headlights. I hard wired this light to a 4.8 volts battery and
looked to see what it was like. The three LEDs at the bottom of
the three inches diam reflector make a very good be seen light
but they because of the reflector design throw a very small
amount of light to the surface of the road. It'd be useless for
just about any trail riding even with a full moon. I repeated the
experiment the next night but with a 7.2 volts battery. The
amount of light on the road or trail didn't seem to be much more
and the light was still useless for trail riding at anything much
over walking speed. This experiment seems to prove that nearly
any light can work as a be seen light even though it'd ber
useless for seeing anything.



It's not just about to be seen. If the light is steady but the size
of

the light is much smaller than that of a car or motorcycle then car


drivers will think you are still much farther away from them than
you

really are.



The only thing that can (somewhat) prevent this effect is a
flashing

light because cars and motorcycles don't have those except for

emergencies. Or a wider light but then you need several watts of
power.



--

Regards, Joerg



http://www.analogconsultants.com/


You seem to have missed my point. The point is that it takkes a
surprisingly little amount of light being emitted in order to be
seen. Being identified as a bicycle is whole other can of worms.



But that's the important part. Being identified as a bicycle averts "Oh
s..t!" situations where a driver slams on the brakes because he thought
you'd be farther away.


There is still a lack of consensus as to whether a steady on light is
better than or worse than a flashing light.


As long as I have to contend with battery-powered weak LED lights I will
keep them on flash, always. If I could find a big enough rear light that
can reasonably be spliced into a battery pack I'd use a steady light,
maybe. Big as in physically large and a total of 1-2W worth of LED power
in there.


In my opinion, the best colour for avoidance would be amber as that's
the international colour for something that motor vehicles shouldn't
be running into. Flashing amber is best.


Technically not legal to be riding with. Motorists would not necessarily
know whether you'd be coming or going. Flashing red works very well. I
am always glad to see cyclists use flashing lights even during the day
when I am driving in a car (I do that also when on my bicycles). With a
bright enough LED you can spot them 14mi to 1/2mi in the distance and
prepare yourself well in time to pass or slow down.

On my road bike I also use a flashing front light because that lamp has
much less than 100 lumens. With that it's fairly worthless as a driving
light at night unless I slow down to 10mph. On the mountain bike I leave
the front light on steady, in traffic also during the day. Because it's
very bright and I really notice the reduction in incursions into my
path. Still looking for a bigger light there, 1000 lumens or so, for
trail riding in the dark which I'll have to do soon.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Ads
  #12  
Old October 14th 14, 07:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Not much needed in a "Be Seen" light

On 10/14/2014 10:07 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

You seem to have missed my point. The point is that it takkes a
surprisingly little amount of light being emitted in order to be
seen. Being identified as a bicycle is whole other can of worms.



But that's the important part. Being identified as a bicycle averts "Oh
s..t!" situations where a driver slams on the brakes because he thought
you'd be farther away.


It can work the other way too. A driver will cut off a fast-moving
bicycle because he or she believes that since it's a bicycle coming it
must be traveling at 5MPH, not 25MPH. When I started using good lights
that were such that it was not possible to tell what was coming, I got
cut off far less often than when I was using poor lights.

The daytime flasher makes a ginormous difference in terms of being cut
off when going straight across an intersection when the motor vehicle is
turning left in front of you. What is most amusing is so many drivers
don't use a left turn signal unless they see a vehicle across the
intersection. These intersections can be across six lanes of traffic
plus a median. As soon as they see the flashing front light suddenly the
turn signal goes on.

There is still a lack of consensus as to whether a steady on light is
better than or worse than a flashing light.


As long as I have to contend with battery-powered weak LED lights I will
keep them on flash, always. If I could find a big enough rear light that
can reasonably be spliced into a battery pack I'd use a steady light,
maybe. Big as in physically large and a total of 1-2W worth of LED power
in there.


There is no lack of consensus. It does not have to be unanimous for it
to be considered consensus. There are a few people that are just saying
that there is no proof because they don't want to look at, or believe,
the proof. Also, what's very instructive is to look at who insists that
there is no advantage to a flashing front daytime light. If Frank says
that there is no advantage then you can take it to the bank that there
is a big advantage.

  #13  
Old October 14th 14, 08:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Not much needed in a "Be Seen" light

sms wrote:
On 10/14/2014 10:07 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

You seem to have missed my point. The point is that it takkes a
surprisingly little amount of light being emitted in order to be
seen. Being identified as a bicycle is whole other can of worms.



But that's the important part. Being identified as a bicycle averts "Oh
s..t!" situations where a driver slams on the brakes because he thought
you'd be farther away.


It can work the other way too. A driver will cut off a fast-moving
bicycle because he or she believes that since it's a bicycle coming it
must be traveling at 5MPH, not 25MPH. When I started using good lights
that were such that it was not possible to tell what was coming, I got
cut off far less often than when I was using poor lights.


Works from the front. My MTB light is quite bright and I guess people
think it must be a bigger vehicle. It has a flash mode as well but I
don't use that anymore because it almost caused some car drivers to do a
panic stop, maybe thinking it was some sort of police vehicle.


The daytime flasher makes a ginormous difference in terms of being cut
off when going straight across an intersection when the motor vehicle is
turning left in front of you. What is most amusing is so many drivers
don't use a left turn signal unless they see a vehicle across the
intersection. These intersections can be across six lanes of traffic
plus a median. As soon as they see the flashing front light suddenly the
turn signal goes on.


Since I have that front flash on my road bike and the bright steady
light on my MTB that rarely happens anymore. With me it wasn't so much
left-turn candidate but people pulling out of side roads or parking lots.


There is still a lack of consensus as to whether a steady on light is
better than or worse than a flashing light.


As long as I have to contend with battery-powered weak LED lights I will
keep them on flash, always. If I could find a big enough rear light that
can reasonably be spliced into a battery pack I'd use a steady light,
maybe. Big as in physically large and a total of 1-2W worth of LED power
in there.


There is no lack of consensus. It does not have to be unanimous for it
to be considered consensus. There are a few people that are just saying
that there is no proof because they don't want to look at, or believe,
the proof. Also, what's very instructive is to look at who insists that
there is no advantage to a flashing front daytime light. If Frank says
that there is no advantage then you can take it to the bank that there
is a big advantage.


Well, I judge by what I noticed as a car driver and there a flashing
rear light proved to be a huge advantage. So that will now be my mode of
operation.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #14  
Old October 14th 14, 10:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,153
Default Not much needed in a "Be Seen" light

On 15/10/14 06:19, Joerg wrote:


Works from the front. My MTB light is quite bright and I guess people
think it must be a bigger vehicle. It has a flash mode as well but I
don't use that anymore because it almost caused some car drivers to do a
panic stop, maybe thinking it was some sort of police vehicle.


I was stopped by a policeman one night. He thought I was on a
motorcycle because my headlight - a home brewed LED light powered by a
Sanyo roller dynamo - was so bright.

--
JS
  #15  
Old October 15th 14, 12:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,374
Default Not much needed in a "Be Seen" light

this rig pulled into our driveway under a cloudy sky in daylight on the hood of a large Jeep Commander with wheels off course....very natty space achine...new. The snowbirds are here.


https://www.google.com/#q=rigid+led+...:pd&tb m=shop

a long bar 2 led high at windshield base

a shorter bar up ahead, with 2 small cubes each sdide fpor t=turning lights.

Driver turned it on. Lit the area between and my truck at 75 feet, mayb .5 more than natural.

Very broad effective swath of light where the Hell's on my truck's roof are narrow beams for the berm.

Clearly if I need more light then Led is the way with less power consumption.
  #16  
Old October 15th 14, 12:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,374
Default Not much needed in a "Be Seen" light

On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 1:07:30 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:

On Monday, October 13, 2014 5:28:01 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:


Sir Ridesalot wrote:




just for fun I removed the solar charger from a malfunctioning


lawn light that looks like one of those old round Union


headlights. I hard wired this light to a 4.8 volts battery and


looked to see what it was like. The three LEDs at the bottom of


the three inches diam reflector make a very good be seen light


but they because of the reflector design throw a very small


amount of light to the surface of the road. It'd be useless for


just about any trail riding even with a full moon. I repeated the


experiment the next night but with a 7.2 volts battery. The


amount of light on the road or trail didn't seem to be much more


and the light was still useless for trail riding at anything much


over walking speed. This experiment seems to prove that nearly


any light can work as a be seen light even though it'd ber


useless for seeing anything.






It's not just about to be seen. If the light is steady but the size


of




the light is much smaller than that of a car or motorcycle then car






drivers will think you are still much farther away from them than


you




really are.








The only thing that can (somewhat) prevent this effect is a


flashing




light because cars and motorcycles don't have those except for




emergencies. Or a wider light but then you need several watts of


power.








--




Regards, Joerg








http://www.analogconsultants.com/




You seem to have missed my point. The point is that it takkes a


surprisingly little amount of light being emitted in order to be


seen. Being identified as a bicycle is whole other can of worms.






But that's the important part. Being identified as a bicycle averts "Oh

s..t!" situations where a driver slams on the brakes because he thought

you'd be farther away.





There is still a lack of consensus as to whether a steady on light is


better than or worse than a flashing light.






As long as I have to contend with battery-powered weak LED lights I will

keep them on flash, always. If I could find a big enough rear light that

can reasonably be spliced into a battery pack I'd use a steady light,

maybe. Big as in physically large and a total of 1-2W worth of LED power

in there.





In my opinion, the best colour for avoidance would be amber as that's


the international colour for something that motor vehicles shouldn't


be running into. Flashing amber is best.






Technically not legal to be riding with. Motorists would not necessarily

know whether you'd be coming or going. Flashing red works very well. I

am always glad to see cyclists use flashing lights even during the day

when I am driving in a car (I do that also when on my bicycles). With a

bright enough LED you can spot them 14mi to 1/2mi in the distance and

prepare yourself well in time to pass or slow down.



On my road bike I also use a flashing front light because that lamp has

much less than 100 lumens. With that it's fairly worthless as a driving

light at night unless I slow down to 10mph. On the mountain bike I leave

the front light on steady, in traffic also during the day. Because it's

very bright and I really notice the reduction in incursions into my

path. Still looking for a bigger light there, 1000 lumens or so, for

trail riding in the dark which I'll have to do soon.



--

Regards, Joerg



http://www.analogconsultants.com/


.....

I experimented with a6" diameter dayglo circle on front bar. l993 ?

Town here has Fed/State road planning avoiding and enhancing the tourist/retiree experience...where a lot of the East coast is diffiu=cult antique roadsystems based on greed not traffic stats and engineering.

So we have Blvd with long sight lines.

The single dot improved my security, the Sheriff told me tis was good and that I went from invisible to visible at 1/4 mile.

Here we have J's insight factored up with older nervous systems I a strange place.

In 1993 dayglo was very avant-garde, almost unknown and reputedly the province of gay men.
  #17  
Old October 15th 14, 01:15 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Not much needed in a "Be Seen" light

On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 11:03:00 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/14/2014 10:07 AM, Joerg wrote:



snip



You seem to have missed my point. The point is that it takkes a


surprisingly little amount of light being emitted in order to be


seen. Being identified as a bicycle is whole other can of worms.






But that's the important part. Being identified as a bicycle averts "Oh


s..t!" situations where a driver slams on the brakes because he thought


you'd be farther away.




It can work the other way too. A driver will cut off a fast-moving

bicycle because he or she believes that since it's a bicycle coming it

must be traveling at 5MPH, not 25MPH. When I started using good lights

that were such that it was not possible to tell what was coming, I got

cut off far less often than when I was using poor lights.



The daytime flasher makes a ginormous difference in terms of being cut

off when going straight across an intersection when the motor vehicle is

turning left in front of you. What is most amusing is so many drivers

don't use a left turn signal unless they see a vehicle across the

intersection. These intersections can be across six lanes of traffic

plus a median. As soon as they see the flashing front light suddenly the

turn signal goes on.



There is still a lack of consensus as to whether a steady on light is


better than or worse than a flashing light.






As long as I have to contend with battery-powered weak LED lights I will


keep them on flash, always. If I could find a big enough rear light that


can reasonably be spliced into a battery pack I'd use a steady light,


maybe. Big as in physically large and a total of 1-2W worth of LED power


in there.




There is no lack of consensus. It does not have to be unanimous for it

to be considered consensus. There are a few people that are just saying

that there is no proof because they don't want to look at, or believe,

the proof. Also, what's very instructive is to look at who insists that

there is no advantage to a flashing front daytime light. If Frank says

that there is no advantage then you can take it to the bank that there

is a big advantage.


Query if flashers are legal under the UVC. I was looking at the Oregon statutes, and flashers are prohibited on cars, and I didn't see any exception for bicycles -- although I didn't look closely. I've never seen anyone get a ticket, and flashers on bikes are ubiquitous.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #18  
Old October 15th 14, 02:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default Not much needed in a "Be Seen" light

On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 8:15:19 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 11:03:00 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:

On 10/14/2014 10:07 AM, Joerg wrote:








snip








You seem to have missed my point. The point is that it takkes a




surprisingly little amount of light being emitted in order to be




seen. Being identified as a bicycle is whole other can of worms.












But that's the important part. Being identified as a bicycle averts "Oh




s..t!" situations where a driver slams on the brakes because he thought




you'd be farther away.








It can work the other way too. A driver will cut off a fast-moving




bicycle because he or she believes that since it's a bicycle coming it




must be traveling at 5MPH, not 25MPH. When I started using good lights




that were such that it was not possible to tell what was coming, I got




cut off far less often than when I was using poor lights.








The daytime flasher makes a ginormous difference in terms of being cut




off when going straight across an intersection when the motor vehicle is




turning left in front of you. What is most amusing is so many drivers




don't use a left turn signal unless they see a vehicle across the




intersection. These intersections can be across six lanes of traffic




plus a median. As soon as they see the flashing front light suddenly the




turn signal goes on.








There is still a lack of consensus as to whether a steady on light is




better than or worse than a flashing light.












As long as I have to contend with battery-powered weak LED lights I will




keep them on flash, always. If I could find a big enough rear light that




can reasonably be spliced into a battery pack I'd use a steady light,




maybe. Big as in physically large and a total of 1-2W worth of LED power




in there.








There is no lack of consensus. It does not have to be unanimous for it




to be considered consensus. There are a few people that are just saying




that there is no proof because they don't want to look at, or believe,




the proof. Also, what's very instructive is to look at who insists that




there is no advantage to a flashing front daytime light. If Frank says




that there is no advantage then you can take it to the bank that there




is a big advantage.




Query if flashers are legal under the UVC. I was looking at the Oregon statutes, and flashers are prohibited on cars, and I didn't see any exception for bicycles -- although I didn't look closely. I've never seen anyone get a ticket, and flashers on bikes are ubiquitous.



-- Jay Beattie.


I don't know about flashers in Oregon but here in Ontario it's illegal but seldom enforced for bicycle tires to have studs on them.

Cheers
  #19  
Old October 15th 14, 03:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
ˇJones[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 27
Default Not much needed in a "Be Seen" light

On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 17:15:16 -0700 (PDT), in rec.bicycles.tech
jbeattie wrote:

Query if flashers are legal under the UVC. I was looking at the Oregon statutes,
and flashers are prohibited on cars, and I didn't see any exception for bicycles --
although I didn't look closely. I've never seen anyone get a ticket, and flashers
on bikes are ubiquitous.

-- Jay Beattie.


Flashing lights other than turn signals are usually prohibited on
motor vehicles under normal driving conditions in most US states.
Some states (Colorado, for example) prohibit driving with parking
lights; however, I'm sure it's not rigidly enforced. Back in my
college days, I drove a taxicab; when I'd cruise for a fare, I'd turn
on my 4-way flashers. One night, I was pulled over and told to quit
doing that.

OTOH, I frequently see amber flashers on service vehicles like garbage
trucks.

Jones

  #20  
Old October 15th 14, 02:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Not much needed in a "Be Seen" light

On 10/14/2014 5:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:

Query if flashers are legal under the UVC. I was looking at the Oregon statutes, and flashers are prohibited on cars, and I didn't see any exception for bicycles -- although I didn't look closely. I've never seen anyone get a ticket, and flashers on bikes are ubiquitous.


When I researched it for California it was unclear. However now that all
the bike share bicycles include flashing lights I presume that it's not
illegal even though it never explicitly says that they are legal.



 




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